TRANSCRIPT OF A RECORDING OF A

MEETING AMONG THE PRESIDENT, JOHN

DEAN, AND H.R. HALDEMAN IN THE OVAL

OFFICE, ON MARCH 21, 1973, FROM

10:12 TO 11:55 AM

PRESIDENT: John, sit down, sit down.

DEAN: Good morning.

PRESIDENT: Well, what is the Dean summary of the day

about?

DEAN: John caught me on the way out and asked me

about why Gray was holding back on

information, if that was under instructions

from us. And it, uh, it was and it wasn't.

Uh, it was instructions proposed by the

Attorney General, consistent with your press

conference statement that no further raw

data was to be turned over to the...

PRESIDENT: Full committee.

DEAN: ...full committee.

PRESIDENT: Right.

DEAN: And that was the extent of it. And Gray,

himself, is the one who reached the

conclusion that no more information be

turned over; he'd turned over enough. Uh,

so this is again Pat Gray making decisions

on his own as to how to handle his hearings.

He has been totally unwilling all along to

take any guidance, any instruction. We

don't know what he is going to do. He is

not going to talk about it. He won't review

it, uh, and I don't think...

PRESIDENT: Right.

MARCH 21, 1973, FROM 10:12 TO 11:55 A.M. 2

DEAN: ...he does it to harm you in any way, sir.

PRESIDENT: He's just quite stubborn and -- he's quite

stubborn; also he isn't very smart. You

know he and I--

DEAN: He's bullheaded.

PRESIDENT: He's smart in his own way, but...

DEAN: Yeah.

PRESIDENT: ...but he's got that typical, "Well, by God,

this is right and they're not going to do

it."

DEAN: That's why he thinks he'll be confirmed,

because he thinks he's being, he's being his

own man He's being forthright, honest. He's

feels he has turned over too much and so

it's a conscious decision that he is harming

the Bureau by doing this and so he's not

going to--

PRESIDENT: (Sighs) I hope to God that we can get off

(unintelligible) though today, this is

because the White House told him to do this

and that other thing. And also, I told

Ehrlichman, I don't see why our little boys

can't make something out of the fact that,

God darn it, this is the, this is the, the

only responsible decision you could possibly

make. The FBI cannot turn over raw files.

Has anybody made that point? I've tried...

MARCH 21, 1973 -FROM 10:12 TO 11:55 A.M. 3

DEAN: Sam Ervin has made that point himself.

PRESIDENT: Did he?

DEAN: Uh, in fact, in reading the transcript of

Gray's hearings, Ervin tried to hold Gray

back from doing what he was doing at the

time he did it. Uh, I thought it was very

unwise. I don't think that anyone is

criticizing...

PRESIDENT: Well, let's say --

DEAN: ... your position on it.

PRESIDENT: Let's make the point, let's make the point

that the raw files cannot be turned over.

Well, I think that point should be made.

DEAN: That, that--

PRESIDENT: (Background noises) We are standing for the

rights of innocent individuals. The

American Civil Liberty Union is against it.

We're against it. (Unintelligible)

tradition, and it will continue to be the

tradition that all files are -- I'd like to

turn them (Unintelligible) let them see what

is in one.

DEAN: How damaging--

PRESIDENT: Any further word on, on Sullivan? Is he

still--

MARCH 21, 1973, FROM 10:12 TO 11:55 A.M. 4

DEAN: Yeah, he's, he's going to be over to see me

today, this morning, hopefully, some-time.

Uh--

PRESIDENT: As soon as you get that, I'll be available

to talk to you this afternoon.

DEAN: All right, sir.

PRESIDENT: I'll be busy until about one o'clock; after

that we can contact. Anytime you're through

I would like to see whatever thing he has.

Well, he' 5 got something, but I'd like-to

just see what it is.

DEAN: Uh, the reason I thought we ought to talk

this morning is because in, in our

conversations, uh, uh, I have, I have the

impression that you don't know everything I

know

PRESIDENT: That's right.

DEAN: ...and it makes it very difficult for you to

make judgments that, uh, that only you can

make...

PRESIDENT: That's right.

DEAN: ... on some of these things and I thought

that--

PRESIDENT: You've got, in other words, I've got to know

why you feel that, uh, that something...

DEAN: Well, let me...

PRESIDENT: ...that, that we shouldn't unravel

something.

MARCH 21, 1973, FROM 10:12 TO 11:55 A.M. 5

DEAN: ...let me give you my overall first.

PRESIDENT: In other words, you, your judgment as to

where it stands, and where we go now---

DEAN: I think, I think that, uh, there's no doubt

about the seriousness of the problem we're,

we've got. We have a cancer--within, close

to the Presidency, that's growing. It's

growing daily. It's compounding, it grows

geometrically now because it compounds

itself. Uh, that'll be clear as I explain

you know, some of the details, uh, of why it

is, and it basically is because (1) we're

being blackmailed; (2) uh, people are going

to start perjuring themself very quickly

that have not had to perjure themselves to

protect other people and the like. And that

is just--and there is no assurance--

PRESIDENT: That it won't bust.

DEAN: That, that won't bust.

PRESIDENT: True.

DEAN: So, let me give you the sort of basic facts'

talking first about the Watergate; and then

about Segretti; and then about some of the

peripheral items that, uh, have come up.

First of all, on, on the Watergate: How did

it all start, where did it start? It

started with an instruction to me from Bob

Haldeman to see if we couldn't set up a

perfectly legitimate campaign intelligence

operation over at the Re-election Committee.

MARCH 21, 1973, FROM 10:12 TO 11:55 A.M. 6

PRESIDENT: Hmm.

DEAN: Not being in this business, I turned to

somebody who had been in this business, Jack

Caulfield, who is, I don't know if you

remember Jack or not. He was your original

bodyguard before

PRES IDENT: Yeah.

DEAN: ...they had...

PRESIDENT: Yeah.

DEAN: ...candidate, candidate...

PRESIDENT: Yeah.

DEAN: ...protection, an old New York City

policeman.

PRESIDENT: Right, I know, I know him.

DEAN: Uh, Jack had worked for John and then was

transferred to my office. I said, "Jack,

come up with a plan that, you know, is a

normal infiltration, I mean, you know,

buying informa- tion from secretaries and

all that sort of thing." He did, he put

together a plan. It was kicked around, and,

uh, I went to Ehrlichman with it. I went to

Mitchell with it, and the consensus was that

Caulfield wasn't the man to do this. Uh, in

retrospect, that might have been a bad call,

'cause he is an incredibly cautious person

and, and wouldn't have put the situation to

where it is today.

MARCH 21, 1973, FROM 10:12 TO 11:55 A.M. 7

PRESIDENT: Yeah.

DEAN: All right, after rejecting that, they said,

"We still need something," so I was told to

look around for somebody that could go over

to 1701 and do this. And that's when I came

up with Gordon Liddy, who-- they needed a

lawyer. Gordon had an intelligence back-

ground from his FBI service. I was aware of

the fact that he had done some extremely

sensitive things for the White House while

he'd been at the White House, and he had

apparently done them well. Uh, going out

into Ellsberg's doctor's office...

PRESIDENT: Oh, yeah.

DEAN: ... and things like this. He'd worked with

leaks. He'd, you know, tracked these things

down. Uh, and (coughs) so the report that I

got from Krogh was that he was a hell of a

good man and, and not only that, a good

lawyer, uh, and could set up a proper

operation. So we talked to Liddy. Liddy

was interested in doing it. Took, uh, Liddy

over to meet Mitchell. Mitchell thought

highly of him because, apparently, Mitchell

was partially involved in his ev--coming to

the White House to work for, for Krogh. Uh,

Liddy had been at Treasury before that.

Then Liddy was told to put together his

plan, you know, how he would run an

intelligence operation. And this was after

he was hired over there at the, uh, the

Committee. Magruder called me in January

and said, "I'd like to have you come over

and see Liddy's plan."

MARCH 21, 1973 FROM 10:12 TO 11:55 A.M. 8

PRESIDENT: January of '72?

DEAN: January of '72. (Background noises) Like,

"You come over to Mitchell's office and sit

in on a meeting where Liddy is going to lay

his plan out." I said, "Well, I don't really

know as I'm the man, but if you want me

there I'll be happy to." (Clears throat) So,

I came over and Liddy laid out a million

dollar plan that was the most incredible

thing I have ever laid my eyes on. All in

codes, and involved black bag operations,

kidnapping, providing prostitutes, uh, to

weaken the opposition, bugging, uh, mugging

teams. It was just an incredible thing.

(Clears throat)

PRESIDENT: But, uh...

DEAN: And--

PRESIDENT: ...that was, that was not, uh...

DEAN: No.

PRESIDENT: ...discussed with...

DEAN: No.

PRESIDENT: ...other persons.

DEAN: No, not at all. And--

PRESIDENT: (Unintelligible)

DEAN: Uh, Mitchell, Mitchell just virtually sat

there puffing and laughing. I could tell

'cause after he--after Liddy left the office

MARCH 21, 1973, FROM 10:12 TO 11:55 A.M. 9

I said, "That's the most incredible thing

I've ever seen." He said, " I agree." And so

then he was told to go back to the draw-ing

boards and come up with something realistic.

So there was a second meeting. Uh, they

asked me to come over to that. I came into

the tail end of the meeting. I wasn't there

for the first part. I don't know how long

the meeting lasted. Uh, at this point, they

were discussing again bugging, kidnapping

and the like. And at this point I said,

right in front of everybody, very clearly, I

said, "These are not the sort of things (1)

that are ever to be discussed in the office

of the Attorney General of the United

States"--where he still was--"and I am

personally incensed." I was trying to get

Mitchell off the hook, uh, 'cause--

PRESIDENT: I know.

DEAN: He's a, he's a nice person, doesn't like to

say no under--when people he's going to have

to work with.

PRESIDENT: That's right.

DEAN: So, I let, I let it be known. I said, "You

all pack that stuff up and get it the hell

out of here 'cause we just, you just can't

talk this way in this office and you

shouldn't, you shouldn't, you should re-

examine your whole thinking." Came back--

PRESIDENT: Who else was present? Be-, besides you--

MARCH 21, 1973, FROM 10:12 TO 11:55 A.M. 10

DEAN: It was Magruder, Magruder--

PRESIDENT: Magruder.

DEAN: Uh, Mitchell, Liddy and myself. I came back

right after the meeting and told Bob, I

said, "Bob, we've got a growing disaster on

our hands if they're thinking this way.' and

I said, "The Unite House has got to stay out

of this and I, frankly, am not going to be

involved in it." He said, "I agree John."

And, I thought, at that point the thing was

turned off. That's the last I heard of it,

when I thought it was turned off, because it

was an absurd proposal.

PRESIDENT: Yeah.

DEAN: Liddy-I did have dealings with him

afterwards. We never talked about it. Now

that would be hard to believe for some

people, but, uh, we never did. Just the

fact of the matter.

PRESIDENT: Well, you were talking about other things.

DEAN: Other things. We had so many other things.

PRESIDENT: He had some legal problems at one time.

DEAN: Now (coughs)--

PRESIDENT: But you were his advisor, and I, I

understand how you could have some, uh, what

cam--what are they campaign laws--I knew

that was you, you have--Haldeman told me

you, that you were heading all of that up

for us. Go ahead.

MARCH 21, 1973 FROM 10:12 TO 11:55 A.M. 11

DEAN: Now. (Clears Throat). So, Liddy went back

after that and it was over, over at, uh,

1701, the Committee, and I, this is where I

come into having put the pieces together

after the fact as to what I can put together

what happened. Liddy sat over there and

tried to come up with another plan that he

could sell. (1) They were talking, saying

to him he was asking for too much money, and

I don't think they were discounting the, the

illegal points at this, after--you know.

Jeb is not a lawyer and he didn't know

whether this was the way the game was played

or not, and what it was all about. They

came up with, apparently, another plan, uh,

but they couldn't get it approved by anybody

over there. So, Liddy and Hunt apparently

came to see Chuck Colson, and Chuck Colson

picked up the telephone and called Magruder

and said, "You all either fish or cut bait.

Uh, this is absurd to have these guys over

there and not using them, and if you're not

going to use them, I may use them." Things

of this nature.

PRESIDENT: When was this?

DEAN: This was apparently in February of '72.

PRESIDENT: That could be. Colson know what they were

talking about?

DEAN: I can only assume, because of his close

relation-ship with...

PRESIDENT: Hunt.

MARCH 21, 1973 FROM 10:12 TO 11:55 A M. 12

DEAN: ...Hunt, he had a damn good idea of what

they were talking about, a damn good idea.

He would probably deny it, deny it today and

probably get away with denying it. But I,

uh, I still--

PRESIDENT: Unless Hunt--

DEAN: Unless Hunt, uh, blows on him--

PRESIDENT: But then Hunt isn't enough. I takes two

doesn't it?

DEAN: Probably. Probably. But Liddy was there

also and if, if Liddy were to blow--

PRESIDENT: Then you've got a problem--I was thinking

(unintelligible}the criminal liability goes.

DEAN: Yeah.

PRESIDENT: Okay.

DEAN: I'll go back over that, and tell (noise) you

where I think the, the soft spots are.

PRESIDENT: Colson then, then Colson then, do you think

was the, uh, was the person who...

DEAN: I think he...

PRESIDENT: ...pushed?

MARCH 21 1973, FROM 10:12 TO 11:55 A.M. 13

DEAN: I think he helped to get the push, get the

thing off the dime. Now something else

occurred, though --

PRESIDENT: Did Colson--did he talk to anybody here?

DEAN: No. I think this was an independent ...

PRESIDENT: Did he talk to Haldeman?

DEAN: No. I don't think so. Now, but here's the

other thing, where the next thing comes in

the chain: I think that Bob was assuming

that they had something that was proper over

there, some intelligence gathering operation

that Liddy was operating. And through

Strachan, uh, who was his tickler, uh, he

started pushing them

PRESIDENT: (Sighs) yeah.

DEAN: ...to get something, to get some information

and they took that as a signal--Magruder

took that as a signal to probably go to

Mitchell and say, "They're pushing us like

crazy for this from the White House." And so

Mitchell probably puffed on his pipe and

said, "Go ahead." And never really reflected

on what it was all about. So, they had some

plan that obviously had, I gather, different

targets they were going to go after. They

were going to infiltrate, and bug, and do

all this sort of thing to a lot of these

targets. This is knowledge I have after the

fact.(coughs) And,

MARCH 21 1973, FROM 10:12 TO 11:55 A.M. 14

apparently, they, uh, they, they had, they

had after they had initially broken in and

bugged the Democratic National Committee

they were getting information. The

information was coming over here to

Strachan. Some of it was given to Haldeman.

Uh, there is no doubt about it. Uh--

PRESIDENT: Did he know what it was coming from?

DEAN: I don't really know if he was, sir.

PRESIDENT: Not necessarily.

DEAN: Not necessarily. That -- not necessarily.

Uh--

PRESIDENT: Strachan knew what it was from.

DEAN: Strachan knew what it was from. No doubt

about it, and whether Strachan--I've never

wanted to press these people on these points

because it...

PRESIDENT: Yeah.

DEAN: ...it hurts them to, to give up that next

inch. So I had to piece things together.

All right, so, Strachan was aware of

receiving information, reporting to Bob. At

one point Bob even gave instructions to

change their capabilities from Muskie to

McGovern, and had passed this back through

Strachan to Magruder and, and apparently to

Liddy, and Liddy was starting to make

arrangements to go in and bug the uh, uh,

McGovern operation. They had done prelim-

...

MARCH 21, 1973, FROM 10:12 TO 11:55 A.M. 15

PRESIDENT: They had never bugged Muskie, though, did

they?

DEAN: No, they hadn't but they had a, they had,

uh, they'd...

PRESIDENT: (Unintelligible).

DEAN: ...infiltrated it by a, a, they had...

PRESIDENT: A secretary.

DEAN: ...a secretary and a chauffeur. Nothing

illegal about that.

PRESIDENT: I suppose you're--

DEAN: Now, so the information was coming over here

and then, uh, I finally, after --the next

point in time where I became aware of

anything was on June 17th, when I got word

that there had been this break-in at the

Democratic National Committee and somebody

from the Committee had been caught, uh, from

our Committee had been caught in the DNC.

And I said, "Oh, my God, that, I can only",

you know, if, instantly putting the pieces

together--(Coughs)

PRESIDENT: You knew what it was.

DEAN: I knew what it was. So I called Liddy, uh,

on that Monday morning, and I said, "Gordon"

- I said, "first, I want to know if anybody-

in the White House was involved in this."

And he said, "No." And they weren't. I

said,

MARCH 21, 1973 FROM 10:12 TO 11:55 A.M. 16

"Well, I want to know how in God's name-this

happened." And he said, "Well, I was pushed

without mercy by Magruder to get in there,

get more information--that the information,

it was not satisfactory. Magruder said,

'The White House is not happy with what

we're getting."'

PRESIDENT: The White House?

DEAN: The White House. Yeah, Uh--

PRESIDENT: Who do you think was pushing him?

DEAN: Well, I think it was probably Strachan

thinking that Bob wanted things,(cough) and

because because I have seen that happen on

other occasions where things have been said

to be Of very prime importance when they

really weren't.

PRESIDENT: Why (unintelligible) I wonder? I'm just

try-ing to think as to why then. We'd just

finished the Moscow trip. I mean, we were--

DEAN: That's right.

PRESIDENT: The Democrats had just nominated Mc G-, Mc

Govern. I mean, for Christ's sakes, I mean,

what the hell were we--I mean, I can see

doing it earlier but I mean, now let me say,

I can see the pressure, but I don't see why

all the pressure would have been one then.

MARCH 21, 1973, FROM 10:12 TO 11:55 A.M. 17

DEAN: I don't know, other than the fact that, uh,

they might have been looking for information

about

PRESIDENT: The convention.

DEAN: ...the conventions.

PRESIDENT: Well, that's right.

DEAN: Because, I understand, also after the fact,

that there was a plan to bug Larry O'Brien's

suite down in Florida.

PRESIDENT: Yeah.

DEAN: Uh, so, uh, Liddy told me, that uh, you

know, this is what had happened and, and

this is why it had happened.

PRESIDENT: Liddy told you he was planning--where'd you

learn there was such a plan--from whom?

DEAN: Beg your pardon.

PRESIDENT: Where did you learn of the plans to bug

Larry O'Brien's suite?

DEAN: From Magruder, after the, long after the

fact.

PRESIDENT: Oh, Magruder, he knows.

DEAN: Yeah. Magruder is totally knowledgeable on

the whole thing.

PRESIDENT: Yeah.

MARCH 21, 1973, FROM 10:12 TO 11:55 A.M. 18

DEAN: All right, now, we've gone through the

trial. We've--I don't know if Mitchell has

perjured himself in the Grand Jury or not.

I've never--

PRESIDENT: Who?

DEAN: Mitchell. I don't know how much knowledge

he actually had. I know that Magruder has

perjured himself in the Grand Jury. I know

that Porter has perjured himself, uh, in the

Grand Jury.

PRESIDENT: Porter (Unintelligible).

DEAN: He's one of Magruder's deputies.

PRESIDENT: Yeah.

DEAN: Uh, that they set up this scenario which

they ran by me. They said, "How about

this?" I said, "Well, I don't knot. I, you

know, if, if this is that you're going to

hang on, fine." Uh, that they--

PRESIDENT: What did they say before the Grand Jury?

DEAN: They said, they said, as they said before

the trial and the Grand Jury, that, that,

uh, Liddy had come over as, as a counsel and

we knell he had these capacities to, you

knoll, to do legitimate intelligence. We

had no idea what he was doing. He was given

an authorization of 250,000 dollars..

PRESIDENT: Right.

MARCH 21, 1973, FROM 10:12 TO 11:55 A.M. 19

DEAN: ...to collect information, because our

surrogates were out on the road. They had

no protection. We had information that

there were going to be demonstrations

against them, that, uh, uh, we had to have a

plan to get information as to what

liabilities they were going to be confronted

with...

PRESIDENT: Right.

DEAN: ...and Liddy was charged with doing this.

We had no knowledge that he was going to bug

the ARC. Uh--

PRESIDENT: Well, the point is, that's untrue.

DEAN: That's right.

PRESIDENT: Magruder did know that-- -

DEAN: Magruder was specifically instructed him to

go back in the DNC.

PRESIDENT: He did?

DEAN: Yes.

PRESIDENT: You know that? Yeah, I see. Okay.

DEAN: Uh, (pause)- I honestly believe that noose

over here knew that. I know, uh, as God is

my maker, I had no knowledge that they were

going to do this.

MARCH 21, 1973, FROM 10:12 TO 11:55 A.M. 20

PRESIDENT: Bob didn't either (unintelligible).

DEAN: Oh, but, you know, Unintelligible)

PRESIDENT: (unintelligible) Bob, Bob-- he wouldn't--

DEAN: Bob I don't believe specifically knew they

were going in there.

PRESIDENT: I don't think so.

DEAN: I don't think he did. I think he knew there

was a capacity to do this, but he wouldn't,

wasn't giving it specific direction.

PRESIDENT: Strachan, did he know?

DEAN: I think Strachan did know.

PRESIDENT: They were going back into the DNC? Hunt

never entered DNC.

DEAN: All right, so--uh, those people are in

trouble as a result of the Grand Jury and

the trial. Mitchell, of course, was never

called during the trial. Now --

PRESIDENT: Mitchell has given a sworn statement?

DEAN: Yes, sir.

PRESIDENT: To the Bureau?

DEAN: To the Grand Jury --

MARCH 21, 1973, FROM 10:12 TO 11:55 A.M. 21

PRESIDENT: Did he go before the Grand Jury?

DEAN: He had, we had a, an arrangement whereby he

went down to, with several of the -- because

it was, you know, the heat of this thing and

the implications on the election' we made an

arrangement where they could quietly go into

the Department of Justice and have one of

The Assistant U.S. Attorneys come over and

take their testimony and then read it before

the Grand Jury. Uh--

PRESIDENT: That was (unintelligible).

DEAN: Although I--that's right. Mitchell \la5

actually called before the Grand Jury. Tile

Grand Jury would not settle for less. The

Jurors wanted him.

PRESIDENT: And he went.

DEAN: And he went.

PRESIDENT: Good.

DEAN: Uh, I don't know what he said. Uh, so I've

never seen a transcript of the Grand Jury.

Now (sighs) what, what has happened post-

June 17? Well, it was, I was under pretty

clear instructions (laughs) not to really

investigate this, that this was something

that just could have been disastrous on the

election if it had--all hell had broken

loose, and I worked on a theory of

containment...

MARCH 21, 1973, FROM 10:12 TO 10:55 A.M. 22

PRESIDENT: Sure.

DEAN: ...to try to hold it right where it was.

PRESIDENT: Right

DEAN: There's no doubt, I, I, uh, that, uh, I was

totally aware what the Bureau was doing at

all times. I was totally aware of what the

Grand Jury was doing.

PRESIDENT: You mean--

DEAN: I knew what witnesses were going to be

called. I knew what they were going to be

asked, and I had to. There just--

PRESIDENT: Why did Petersen play the, play the game so

straight with us?

DEAN: Because Petersen is a soldier. He played--

he kept me informed. He told me when we had

problems, where we had problems, and the

like Uh, he believes in, in, in you. He

believes in this Administration. This

Administration has made him. Uh, I don't

thinly he's done anything improper, but he

did make sure the investigation was narrowed

dozen to the very, very...

PRESIDENT: Plight.

DEAN: ...fine...

PRESIDENT: Right.

MARCH 21, 1973, FROM 10:12 TO 11:55 A.M. 23

DEAN: ...criminal things, which was a break for

us. There's no doubt about it.

PRESIDENT: He honestly feels that he did an adequate

job?

DEAN: He, uh, they ran that investigation out to

the fullest extent they could follow a lead

(coughs) and that was it.

PRESIDENT: But the point is, where I suppose he could

be criticized for not-doing an adequate job

is why didn't he call Haldeman? Thy didn't

he get a statement from Colson? Or they did

get Colson?

DEAN: That's right. But see, the thing is, is

based on their FBI interviews, there was no

reason to follow up. There were no leads

there. Colson said, "I have no knowledge of

this" to the FBI. Uh, Strachan said, "I

have no knowledge of--" you know. They

didn't ask Strachan any Watergate questions.

They asked him about Segretti. Uh, they

said, "What's your connection with Liddy?"

and he just said, "Well, I, you know I just,

met him over there," and they never really

pressed him. They didn't you know, they--

look, Strachan appeared, uh, as a result of

some coaching, he could be the dumbest paper

pusher in the bowels of the, the White

House. All right, now, post-June 17th,

these guys immediately--it is very, very

(laughs) interesting --Liddy, for example,

the Friday

MARCH 21, 1973 FROM 10:12 TO 11:55 A.M. 24

before--uh, on I guess it was the, uh on the

15th, uh, 16th, uh, of, uh, June--had been

in Henry Petersen's office with another

member of my staff on campaign compliance

(laughs) problems, uh, joking. After the

incident, he went, he ran, uh, Kleindienst

doom at Burning Tree Country Club and told

(laughs) him that "You've got to get my men

out of jail," which was kind of a--

Kleindienst said, "Now, you get the hell out

of here, kid, uh, uh, whatever you've got to

say, just say to somebody else. Don't

bother me," and-- but this has never come

up.

PRESIDENT: Yeah.

DEAN: Uh, Liddy said, said that, you know -- they

all got counsel instantly and said that, you

know' "she'll, we'll ride this thing out."

All right, then they started waking demands;

We've got to have attorneys' fees. Uh, we

don’t have any money ourselves, and if-you

are asking us to take this through the

election." All right, so arrangements were

made through Mitchell, uh, initiating it, in

discussions that--I was present-that these

guys had to be taken care of. Their

attorneys' fees had to be done. Kalmbach

alas brought in. Uh, Kalmbach raised some

cash. Uh, they were, uh, you know--

PRESIDENT: They put that under the cover of a Cuban

Committee or (unintelligible).

MARCH 21, 1973, FROM 10:12 TO 11:55 A.M. 25

DEAN: Yeah, they, they had a Cuban Committee and

they had--some of it was given to Hunt's

lawyer, who in turn passed it out. This,

you know, when Hunt’s wife was flying to

Chicago with ten thousand, she was actually,

I understand after the fact now, was going

to pass that money to, uh, one of the

Cubans, to meet him in Chicago and pass it

to somebody there.

PRESIDENT: Why didn't she (unintelligible) maybe--well,

whether it's maybe too late to-do anything

about it, but I would certainly keep that,

(laughs) that cover for whatever it's worth.

DEAN: I'll...

PRESIDENT: Keep the Committee.

DEAN Af-, after, well, that, that; that's the

most troublesome post-thing, uh, because (1)

Bob is involved in that; John is involved in

that; I'm involved in that; Mitchell is

involved in that. And that's an obstruction

of justice.

PRESIDENT: In other words the fact that uh, that you're

you're, you're taking care Of the witnesses.

DEAN: That's right, uh--

PRESIDENT: How was Bob involved?

DEAN: Well, th-, they ran out of money over there.

Bob had three hundred and fifty thousand

dollars in a safe over here that was really

set aside for polling purposes. ills and

there was no other source of money, so they

came over here and said, "You all've got to

give us some money."

MARCH 21, 1973 FROM 10:12 TO 11:55 A.M. 26

PRESIDENT: Right.

DEAN: I had to go to Bob and say, "Bob, you know,

you've got to have some--they need some

money over there." He said "What for?" And

so I had to tell him what it was for 'cause

he wasn't about to just send money over

there willy-nilly. And, uh, Jolly was

involved in those discussions, and we

decided, you know, that, you know, that

there was no price too high to pay to let

this thing blow up in front of the election.

PRESIDENT: I think you - should handle that one pretty

fast.

DEAN: Oh, I think--

PRESIDENT: That issue, I mean.

DEAN: I think we can.

PRESIDENT: So that the three-fifty went back ov-, over

here

DEAN: That's alright. I think we can too.

PRESIDENT: Who else is?

DEAN: But, now, here, here's what's happening

right now.

PRESIDENT: Yeah.

MARCH 21, 1973, FROM 10:12 TO 11:55 A.M. 27

DEAN: What sort of brings matters to the--this is

(1) this-is going to be continual black-

mail operation by Hunt and Liddy and the

Cubans. No doubt about it. And McCord...

PRESIDENT: Yeah .

DEAN: who is, who is another one involved. McCord

has asked for nothing. Uh, McCord did ask

to meet with somebody, and it was Jack

Caulfield, who is his old friend, who'd

gotten him hired over the-ret And, when,

when, when Caulfield had him hired, he was a

perfectly legitimate security man. And he

wanted to know, well, you know, (coughs) he

wanted to talk about commutation, and things

like that. And as you know Colson has

talked to, indirectly to Hunt about

commutation. (Clears throat). All these

things are bad, in, in, in that they are

problems, they are promises, they are

commitments. They are the very sort of

thing that the Senate is going to be looking

most for. I don't think they can find them,

frankly.

PRESIDENT: Pretty hard.

DEAN: Pretty hard. Damn hard. It's all cash.

Uh--

PRESIDENT: Lowell, I mean, pretty hard as far as the

witnesses are concerned.

MARCH 21, 1973, FROM 10:12 TO 11:55 A.M. 28

DEAN: That's right. Now, The blackmail is

continuing. Hunt called one of the lawyers

from the Re-election Committee on last

Friday to meet with him on--over the

weekend. The guy came in to me, to see me

to get a message directly from Hunt to me,

for the first time.

PRESIDENT: Is Hunt out on bail?

DEAN: Pardon?

PRESIDENT: Is Hunt on bail?

DEAN: Hunt is on bail. Correct. Uh, Hunt now is

demanding another seventy-to thousand

dollars for his own personal expenses;

another fifty thousand dollars to pay his

attorneys' fees; a hundred and twenty some

thousand dollars. Wants it, wanted it by

the close of business yesterday. 'Cause he

says, "I'm going to be sentenced on Friday,

and I've got to be able to get my financial

affairs in order." I told this fellow

O'Brien, "You came--all right, you came to

the wrong man, fellow. I'm not involved in

the money. Uh, I don't know a thing about

it, can't help you." Said, "You better

scramble around elsewhere." Now, O'Brien is,

O'Brien. is, is a ball player. He's been,

he carried tremendous water for us. Uh--

PRESIDENT: He isn't Hunt's lawyer, is he?

DEAN: No, he is, he is our-lawyer at the Re-

election Committee.

MARCH 21, 1973, FROM 10:12 TO 11:55 A.M. 29

PRESIDENT: I see, good.

DEAN: So he's safe. There's no problem there.

But it raises the whole question of Hunt now

has made a direct threat against Ehrlichman,

as a result of this. This is his blackmail.

He says, "I will bring John Ehrlichman down

to his knees and put him in jail. Uh, I

have done enough seamy things for he and

Krogh, uh, that they'll never survive it."

PRESIDENT: What's that, on Ellsberg? -

DEAN: Ellsberg, and apparently some other things.

I don't know the full extent of it. Uh--

PRESIDENT: I don't know about anything else.

DEAN: I don't know either, and I (laughs) hate to

learn some of these things. So that's, that

's that situation. Now, we're at the soft

points. How many people know about this?

Hell, uh, well, let me go one step further

in this, this whole thing. The Cubans that

were used in the Watergate were also the

same Cubans that Hunt and Liddy used for

this California Ellsberg thing, for the

break-in out there.

PRESIDENT: Yeah.

DEAN: So they're, they're aware of that. How high

their knowledge is, is something else. Hunt

and Liddy, of course, are totally aware of,

of, of it, and the fact that, uh, it was

rift out of the White House.

MARCH 21, 1973 FROM 10:12 TO 11:55 A.M. 30

PRESIDENT: I don't know what the hell we did that for.

DEAN: I don't either.

PRESIDENT: What in the name of God did that--

DEAN: Mr. President, there have been a couple of

things around here that I have gotten wind

of. Uh, there was at one time a desire to

do a second-story job on the Brookings

Institute where they had the Pentagon

Papers. Now I flew to California because I

was told that John had instructed it and he

said, "I really hadn't. It's- a

misimpression, that for Christ's sake, turn

it off." And I did. I came back and turned

it off. Because, you know the, when you,

you know, if the risk is minimal and the,

and the gain is fantastic, it's something

else. But with a low risk and uh, no gain,

uh, hey, it's just, uh, it's not worth it.

Well--who knows about this all now? All

right, you've got (clears throat) the

Cubans' lawyer's' a man by the name of

Rothblatt, who is a no-good, publicity-

seeking, son-of-a-bitch, to be very frank

about it. He has had to be turned down and

tuned off. He was canned by his own people

cause they didn't trust him. They were

trying to run a different route than he

wanted to run. He didn't want them to plead

guilty. He wants to represent them before

the Senate. So, F. Lee Bailey, who was the

partner of one of the, one of the men

representing McCord; uh, got in and, and

cooled Rothblatt down. So, F. Lee B-,

Bailey's got knowledge. Uh, Hunt's lawyer,

a man by the name of Bittman, who's an

excellent criminal lawyer from the

Democratic era of Bobby Kennedy, he's got

knowledge. Uh--

MARCH 21, 1973, FROM 10:12 TO 11:55 A.M. 31

PRESIDENT: Do you think, do you think, that he's got

some How much?

DEAN: Well, everybody-not only, all the, all the

direct knowledge that Hunt and Liddy have,

as well as all the hearsay they have.

PRESIDENT: I (unintelligible).

DEAR: Uh, you've got the trio lawyers over at the

Re-election Committee who did an

investigation to find out the facts.

Slowly, they got the whole picture.

They're, uh, they're solid, but they're--

PRESIDENT: But they know.

DEAN: But they know. Uh, you've got, then, an

awful lot of--all the principals involved

know. Uh, Hunt--some people's wives know.

PRESIDENT: Sure.

DEAN: Uh, there's no doubt about that. Mrs. Hunt

was the savviest woman in the world. She

had the whole picture together.

PRESIDENT: Did she?

DEAN: Yeah, it, uh--apparently, she was the pillar

of strength in that family before the death,

and, uh--

MARCH 21, 1973, FROM 10:12 TO 11:55 A.M. 32

PRESIDENT: Great sadness. The basis, as Smatter of

fact (clears throat) there was some

discussion (unintelligible) uh, Hunt's

problems after his wife died and I said, of

course, commutation could be considered on

the basis of his wife, and that is the only

discussion I ever had in that light.

DEAN: Right. Uh, so that's, that's it. That's

the, the extent of the knowledge. Now,

where, where are the soft spots on this?

Well, first of all, there's the, there's the

problem of the continued blackmail

PRESIDENT: Right.

DEAN: ...which will not only go on now, it'll goon

when these people are in prison, and it will

compound the obstruction of justice

situation. It'll cost money. It's

dangerous. Nobody, nothing--people around

here are not pros at this sort of thing.

This is the sort of thing Mafia people can

do: washing money, getting clean money, and

things like that, uh--we're--we just don't

know about those (noise) things, because

we're-not used to, you know--we are not

criminals and not used to dealing in that

business. It's, uh, it's, uh--

PRESIDENT: That's right.

DEAN: It's tough thing to know how to do.

PRESIDENT: Maybe we can't even do that.

MARCH 21, 1973, FROM 10:12 TO 11:55 A.M. 33

DEAN: That's right. It's a real problem as to

whether we could even do it. Plus there's a

real problem in raising money. Uh, Mitchell

has been working on raising some money. Uh,

feeling he's got, you know, he's got one,

he's one of the ones with the most to lose.

Uh, but there's no denying the fact that the

White House, and uh, Ehrlichman, Haldeman,

Dean are involved in some of the early money

decisions.

PRESIDENT: How much money do you need?

DEAN: I would say these people are going to cost,

uh, a million dollars over the next, uh, -

two years. (Pause)

PRESIDENT: We could get that.

DEAN: Uh, huh.

PRESIDENT: You, on the money, if you need the money, I

mean, uh' you could get the money. Let's

say--

DEAN: Well, I think that we're going--

PRESIDENT: What I mean is, you could, you could get a

million dollars. And you could get it in

cash. I, I know where it could be gotten.

DEAN: Uh, huh.

MARCH 21, 1973 FROM 10:12 TO 11:55 A.M. 34

PRESIDENT: I mean it's not easy, but it could be acne.

But, uh, the question is who the hell would

handle it?

DEAN: That's right, uh--

PRESIDENT: Any ideas on that?

DEAN: Well, I would think that would be something

that Mitchell ought to be charged with.

PRESIDENT: I would think so, too.

DEAN: And get some, get some pros to help him.

PRESIDENT: Let me say, there shouldn't be a lot of

people running around getting money. We

should set up a little--

DEAN: Well, he's got one person doing it who I'm

not sure is--

PRESIDENT: Who is that?

DEAN: He's got Fred LaRue, uh, doing it. Now Fred

started out going cut trying to...

PRESIDENT: No.

DEAN: ...solicit money from all kinds of people.

Now, I learned about that, and I said, "My

God"...

PRESIDENT: No.

DEAN: ..."It's just awful. Don't do it."

PRESIDENT: Yeah.

MARCH 21, 1973 FROM 10:12 TO 11:55 A.M. 35

DEAN: Uh, people are going to ask what the money

is for. He's working-- apparently he talked

to Tom Pappas.

PRESIDENT: I know.

(Noise)

DEAN: And Pappas has, uh, agreed to come up wit1 a

sizeable amount, I gather, from,

from...(Noise)

PRESIDENT: Yeah.

DEAN: ...Mitchell.

PRESIDENT: Yeah, well, what do you need, then? You

need, uh, you don't need a million right

away, but you need a million. Is that

right?

DEAN: That's right.

PRESIDENT: You need a million in cash, don't you? If

you want to put that through, would you put

that through, uh--this is thinking out loud

here for a moment--would you put that

through the Cuban Committee?

DEAN: Umm, no,

PRESIDENT: Or would you just do this through a

(unintelligible) that it's going to be, uh,

well, it's cash money, and so forth. How,

if that ever comes out, are you going to

handle it? Is the Cuban Committee an

obstruction of justice, if they want to

help?

MARCH 21, 1973 FROM 10:12 TO 11:55 A.M. 36

DEAN: Well, they've got a pr-, they've got

priests, and they--

PRESIDENT: Would you like to put, I mean, would that,

would that give a little bit of a cover, for

example?

DEAN: That would give some for the Cubans and

possibly Hunt.

PRESIDENT: Yeah.

DEAN: Uh, then you've got Liddy and--McCord is

not, not accepting any money. So he's, he

is not a bought man right now. (Pause)

PRESIDENT: Okay.

DEAN: All right. Let, let me, uh

PRESIDENT: Go ahead.

DEAN: ...continue a little bit here now. The, uh,

I, when I say this is a a growing cancer,

uh, I say it for reasons like this. Bud

Krogh in his testimony before the Grand

Jury, was forced to perjure himself. Uh, he

is haunted by it. Uh, Bud said, "I haven't

had a pleasant day on the job."

PRESIDENT: Huh, said what?

MARCH 21, 1973, FROM 10:12 TO 11:55 A.M. 37

DEAN: He said, "I have not had a pleasant day on

my job." Uh, he's talked, apparently, he

said to me, "I told my wife all about this,"

he said. "The, uh, the curtain may ring

down one of these days, and' uh, I may have

to face the music, which I'm perfectly

willing to do." Uh--

PRESIDENT: What did he perjure himself on, John?

DEAN: His, did, uh, did he know the Cubans? He

did. Uh--

PRESIDENT: He said he didn't?

DEAN: That's right. They didn't press him hard,

or that he--

PRESIDENT: He might be able to--I'm just trying to

think. Perjury is an awful hard rap to

prove. He could say that I (pause) hem,

well, go-ahead.

DEAN: (Coughs) Well, so that's, that's the first,

that's one perjury. Now, Mitchell and, and,

uh, Magruder are potential perjuries. There

is always the possibility of any one of

these individuals blowing. Hunt, Liddy.

Liddy's in jail right now; he's serving his-

-trying to get good time right now. I think

Liddy is probably, in his, in his own

bizarre way, the strongest of all of them.

Uh, so there's, there is that possibility.

MARCH 21, 1973, FROM 10:12 TO 11:55 A.M. 38

PRESIDENT: Well, your, your major, your major guy keep

under control is Hunt.

DEAN: That's right.

PRESIDENT: I think. Because he knows...

DEAN: He knows so much.

PRESIDENT: ...about a lot of other things.

DEAN: He knows so much. Right. Uh, he could sink

Chuck Colson. Apparently, apparently, he is

quite distressed with Colson. He thinks

Colson has abandoned him. Uh, Colson was to

meet with him when he was out there, after,

now he had left the White House. He met

with him through his lawyer. Hunt raised

the question he wanted money. Colson's

lawyer told him that Colson wasn't doing

anything smith money, and Hunt took offense

with that immediately, that, uh, uh, that

Colson had abandoned him. Uh--

PRESIDENT: Don't you, just looking at the immediate

problem, don't you have to have--handle

Hunt's financial situation

DEAN: I, I think that's--

PRESIDENT: ...damn soon?

DEAN: That is, uh, I talked to Mitchell about that

last night--

MARCH 21, 1973, FROM 10:12 TO 11:55 A.M. 39

PRESIDENT: (Unintelligible)

DEAN: And, and, uh, I told--

PRESIDENT: (Unintelligible) may--after all, You've got

to keep the cap on the bottle that much...

DEAN: That's right; that's right.

PRESIDENT: ...in order to have any options.

DEAN: That's right.

PRESIDENT: Either that or let it all blow right now.

DEAN: Well, that, you know' that's the, that's the

question. Uh--

PRESIDENT: Now, go ahead. The others. You've got

Hunt... -

DEAN: All right, now we've got--

PRESIDENT: ...you've got Krogh, and you've got--

DEAN: Now we've got Kalmbach (coughs).

PRESIDENT: Yeah, that's a tough one.

DEAN: Kalmbach received...

PRESIDENT: (unintelligible)

MARCH 21, 1973 FROM 10:12 TO 11:55 A.M. 40

DEAN: ...at the close of the, of the, uh, '68

campaign, in January of '69, he got a

million seven dollars, uh, a million seven

hundred thousand dollars to be custodian

for. That cane down from New York. It was

placed in safe deposit boxes here. Uh, some

other people were on the boxes, and

ultimately, the money was taken out to

California. All right, there is knowledge

of the fact that he did start with a million

seven. Several people know this. Now,

since '69, he's spent a good deal of this

money and, and, uh, accounting for it is

going to be very difficult for Herb. For

example, he's spent--oh-close to five

hundred thousand dollars on private polling.

Now that just opens up a whole new thing.

It's not illegal, but, uh, it's more of the

same sort of thing.

PRESIDENT: I don't think that poses a hell of a

problem, does it?

DEAN: No, I don't think so. Uh--

PRESIDENT: Practically everybody does polling.

DEAN: That's right, uh, it's not, there's nothing

criminal about it. It was private polls.:

It was...

PRES IDEAL: Nothing--

DEAN: ...uh, proper money.

MARCH 21, 1973 FROM 10:12 TO 11:55 A.M. 41

PRESIDENT: The law didn't, the law didn't

(unintelligible)...

DEAN: (Coughs )

PRESIDENT: ... polled all through the years.

DEAN: That’s right-. Uh, he sent four hundred

thousand dollars, as he's described to me,

somewhere in the South or another candidate.

I assume this was four hundred, uh, that

went...

PRESIDENT: Wallace.

DEAN: ...to Wallace. Right. Uh; he has

maintained, uh, a, a man, who I only I know

by the name of "Tony", who is the fellow]

who did the, the Chappaquidick study and...

PRESIDENT: I heard about that.

DEAN: ...other, other odd jobs like that. Nothing illegal...

PRESIDENT: Yeah.

DEAN: ...uh, but closer. Uh, I don't know of

anything that Herb has done that is illegal,

other than the fact that he doesn't want to

blow the whistle on a lot of people, and may

find himself in a perjury situation.

PRESIDENT: Well, if he, uh, he could--because he will

be asked about that money.

MARCH 21, 1973 FROM 10:12 TO 11:55 A.M. 42

DEAN: He will. What'll happen is, when they call

him up there--and he of course has no

immunity, uh, they'll say, "How did you

happen--how did you pay Mr. Segretti?"

"Well, I had cash on hand" "Well, how much

cash did you have on hand?"

PRESIDENT: Right.

DEAN: Uh, where does he go from there? "Where did

you get the cash?"

PRESIDENT: Uh, huh.

DEAN: A full series of questions. His bank

records indicate he had cash on hand,

because some of these were set up in trustee

accounts.

PRESIDENT: How would you handle him, then, John? For

example, would you just have him put the

whole thing out?

DEAN: (Draws breath)

PRESIDENT: I don't think so. I mean I don't mind the

five hundred thousand dollars and I don't

mind the four hundred thousand dollars...

DEAN: No, that--

PRESIDENT: ...for activities (unintelligible).

DEAN: That, that, uh, that doesn't bother me

either. There's--as I say, Herb's problems

are...

MARCH 21, 1973, FROM 10:12 TO 11:55 A.M. 43

PRESIDENT: There's a surplus--

DEAN: ...politically embarrassing, but not as, not

criminal.

PRESIDENT: Well, they're embarrassing, sure--he, he

just handled matters that were between the

campaigns, before anything was done. There

were surveys, et cetera, et cetera, et

cetera, et cetera, There is no need to

account for that. No law requires him to

account for that.

DEAN: Right. Uh, now--

PRESIDENT: The source of the money, there's no

illegality in having a surplus, is there, in

cash afterwards?

DEAN: No, the money-it has always been argued by

Stans--came from pre-convention.

PRESIDENT: Pre-convention.

DEAN: For the--and pre-primary for the, for the,

uh...

PRESIDENT: That's right.

DEAN: ...'68 race.

PRESIDENT: That's right.

DEAN: It was just set aside.

PRESIDENT: That's right.

DEAN: Uh, that, that all can be explained. I

think that the--

MARCH 21, l973, FROM 10:12 TO 11:55 A.M. 44

PRESIDENT: All right. How do your other

vulnerabilities go together?

DEAN: The other vulnerabilities: We've got a, uh,

runaway Grand Jury up in the Southern

District.

PRESIDENT: Yeah, I heard.

DEAN: They're after Mitchell and Stans on some

sort of bribe or influence peddling...

PRESIDENT: On Vesco.

DEAN: ...with Vesco.

PRESIDENT: Yeah.

DEAN: Uh, they're also going to try to drag

Ehrlichman into that. Apparent' y,

Ehrlichman had some meetings with Vesco,

also. Uh, Don Nixon, Jr., came in to see

John a couple of times, uh, about the

problem.

PRESIDENT: Not about the Complaint.

DEAN: That, there's uh--the fact of the matter is-

PRESIDENT: He came about a job.

DEAN: That's right. And, and, and, uh, I-

MARCH 21, 1973, FROM 10:12 TO 11:55 A.M. 45

PRESIDENT: We're, it's--Ehrlichman's totally to blame

on that.

DEAN: Yeah. Well, I think...

PRESIDENT: No White House (unintelligible).

DEAN: No one has done anything for...

PRESIDENT: ...Vesco.

DEAN: ...Vesco.

PRESIDENT: ...matter of--not for the prosecutor.

DEAN: No. (Coughs) The, uh--

PRESIDENT: Would Ehrlichman, incidentally, have to

appear there?

DEAN: Before that Grand Jury? Yes. He could very

well.

PRESIDENT: Uh, we couldn't presume immunity there?

DEAN: Not really. Uh, criminal charge--

PRESIDENT: Criminal charge--yeah. (Unintelligible) the

charge is, mind you. Go ahead.

DEAN: Right. That's a little different. (Clears

throat) I think that would be dynamite to

defend, uh...

PRESIDENT: Yeah.

DEAN: ...against that.

MARCH 21, 1973 FROM 10:12 TO 11:55 A.M. 46

PRESIDENT: Also, he, he distinguishes it. He says,

"It's criminal charge; I'll be glad to go

up." Use the Flanigan... -

DEAN: Right.

PRESIDENT: ...analogy.

DEAN: Right, uh, (clears throat) well, that's,

that's pretty much the overall picture and

probably the most troublesome thing--well,

the Segretti thing. Let's get down to that.

I think Bob has indicated to me he told you

a lot of, of it, that he, indeed, did

authorize it. He didn't authorize anything

like ultimately evolved.

PRESIDENT: Yeah.

DEAN: He was aware of it. He was aware that

Chapin and Strachan were looking for

somebody.

PRESIDENT: Yeah.

DEAN: Again, this is one that, uh, it is potential

that Dwight Cha-, Chapin could have a felony

charge against him in this, because he's--

PRESIDENT: Felony?

DEAN: Felony. Because he has to, he has to

disprove a negative. The negative is that

he didn't control and direct Segretti.

MARCH 21, 1973 FROM 10:12 TO 11:55 A.M. 47

PRESIDENT: Would the felony be in perjury again? Or--

DEAN: Uh, no. The felony this, in this instance

being a potential use of the, one of the

civil rights statutes, for anybody who

interferes with a candidate for, uh,

national office--not in, interferes with

their campaign in any way.

PRESIDENT: shy isn't (unintelligible) civil rights

statute be used to pick up any of these

clowns that were demonstrating against us,

then?

DEAN: Well, I have, I've, I've argued that they

use that for that very purpose. Uh--

PRESIDENT: Really?

DEAN: Yes, I have. And, uh--

PRESIDENT: We were, those were, uh, that was

interfering with the campaign. -

DEAN: That's exactly right. That's exactly right.

But they--

PRESIDENT: The Segretti one, I think, uh, I'm not as

con-cerned about that because it's so bad

the way it's been put out on the PR side,

then I think it will eventually end up on

the PR side very confused. And it'll fool;

bad when that's attributed, but I don't, I

can't see the criminal thing, (clears

throat) but I just may be wrong.

MARCH 21, 1973 FROM 10:12 TO 11:55 A.M. 48

DEAN: Well, here, what really, what really bothers

me is that this, this growing situation--as

I say it is growing because of the, the

continued need to-provide support for the...

PRESIDENT: Right.

DEAN: ...Watergate people who are going to

PRESIDENT: Yeah.

DEAN: ...hold us up for everything they've got

PRESIDENT: That's right.

DEAN: ...and the need for some people to perjure

themselves as they go down the road here.

Uh, if this thing ever blows, and we're in a

cover-up situation, I think it'd be

extremely damaging to you, uh, and uh, the,

uh--

PRESIDENT: Sure.

DEAN: Uh--

PRESIDENT: The whole concept of Administration justice.

DEAN: That's right, uh--

PRESIDENT: We cannot have--

DEAN: That's what really troubles me. For

example, what happens if it starts breaking,

and they do find a criminal case against a

Haldeman, a Dean, a Mitchell, an Ehrlichman?

Uh, that is--

MARCH 21, 1973 FROM 10:12 TO 11:55 A.M. 49

PRESIDENT: Well, if it really comes down to that, we

cannot, maybe--we'd have to shed it in order

to contain it again.

DEALN: (Clears throat) That's right. I'm coming

down to the--what I really think is that,

that, Bob and John and John Mitchell and I

should sit down and spend a day, or however

long, to figure out (1) how this can be

carved away from you, so it does not damage

you or the Presidency. 'Cause it just

can't. And it's not something, it, you're

not involved in it and it's something you

shouldn't--

PRESIDENT: That is true.

DEAN: I know, sir, it is. Well, I can just tell

from our conversations that, you know, them

are things that you have no knowledge of.

PRESIDENT: The absurdity of the whole damned thing...

DEAN: But it--

PRESIDENT: bugging and so on. Well, let me say I am

keenly aware of the fact that, uh, Colson,

et al, and so forth were doing their best to

get information and so forth and so on. But

they all knew very well they were supposed

to comply with the law.

DEAN: That's right.

MARCH 21, 1973 FROM 10:12 TO 11:55 A.M. 50

PRESIDENT: No question.

DEAN: Uh--

PRESIDENT: (Unintelligible) you think--you feel that

really the man, the triggerman was Colson on

this end?

DEAN: Well, no. He was one of se-, he was just in

the chain. He was, he helped push the

thing.

PRESIDENT: Called him up and said, "we've got a, we've

got (unintelligible)" I don't know what the

Christ he would be doing. Oh, I'll bet you,

I know why. That was at the time of ITT.

He was trying to get something going there

because ITT--they were bugging us, I mean

they were

DEAN: Right.

PRESIDENT: ...giving us hell.

DEAN: Well, I know, I know he used, uh--

PRESIDENT: Hunt to go out there?

DEAN: Hunt.

PRESIDENT: I knew about that.

DEAN: Yeah.

MARCH 21, 1973 FROM 10:12 TO 11:55 A.M. 51

PRESIDENT: I did know about it at the time. I knew

that there was, there was something going on

there...

DEAN: Right.

PRESIDENT: ...but I didn't know it was Hunt.

DEAN: Right. Uh, that's what re, what really

troubles me is, you know, (1) will this

thing not break some day and...

PRESIDENT: Yeah.

DEAN: ...the whole thing--domino situation.

PRESIDENT: Yeah

DEAN: You know, they just, I think if it starts

crumbling, fingers will be pointing, and--

PRESIDENT: That's right.

DEAN: Uh--

PRESIDENT: That's right.

DEAN: Bob will be accused of things he has never

heard of...

PRES IDENT: Yeah.

DEAN: ...and then he'll have to disprove it, and

it'll just get nasty and it'll be a real,

uh, real bad situation. And the person who

will be hurt by it most will be you and...

MARCH 21, 1973 FROM 10:12 TO 11:55 A.M. 52

PRESIDENT: Of course.

DEAN: ...the Presidency, and I just don't think--

PRESIDENT: First, because I'm expected to know this,

and I'm supposed to, supposed to check these

things. And so forth...

DEAN: That's right.

PRESIDENT: and so on. But let's, let's, let's come

back and go further. Sure. Yes, indeed.

But what are your feelings, yourself, John?

You know pretty well what they'll all say.

What are your feelings toward the options?

DEAN: I am not confident that, uh, we can ride

through this. I think there are, I think

there are soft spots.

PRESIDENT: You used to feel comfortable.

DEAN: Well, I feel, I felt, I felt comfortable for

this reason. I've noticed of recent since

the publicity has increased on, on this

thing again, with the Gray hearings, that

everybody is now starting to watch out for

their own behind. Uh--

PRESIDENT: That's right.

DEAN: Everyone's pulling in. They're getting

their own counsel. More counsel are

getting..

MARCH 21, 1973 FROM 10:12 TO 11:55 A.M. 53

PRESIDENT: Right.

DEAN: ...involved.

PRESIDENT: Right.

DEAN: Uh, you know, "How do I protect my ass?"

PRESIDENT: Well, they're scared.

DEAN: They're scared and that's just, you know,

that's bad. We were able to hold it for a

long time.

PRESIDENT: Yeah, I know.

DEAN: Uh, another thing is, you know, my facility

now to deal with the multitude of people I

have been dealing with has been hampered

because of Gray blowing me up into the front

page.

PRESIDENT: Your cover's broken.

DEAN: That's right and it's with, it was--

PRESIDENT: (unintelligible) cover. All right. Now.

So on. So, so, what you really come dozen

to is, what in the hell, in the hell will

you do? Let's, let us suppose that you and

Haldeman and Ehrlichman and Mitchell say,

uh, "We can't hold this". What, what then

are you going to say? Are you going to put

out a complete disclosure? Isn't that the

best plan?

MARCH 21, 1973 FROM 10:12 TO 11:55 A.M. 54

DEAN: Well, one way to do it is to--

PRESIDENT: That'd by my view on it.

DEAN: One way to do it is for you to in-, tell the

Attorney General that you can finally, you

know, really, this is the first time you're

getting all the pieces together.

MARCH 21, 1973 FROM 10:12 TO 11:55 A.M. 55

REEL 2 BEGINS

DEAN: Uh--

PRESIDENT: Ask for another grand jury?

DEAN: Ask for another grand jury. The way it

should be done though, is a way that-- for

example: I think that we could avoid, uh,

criminal liability for countless people and

the ones that did get it, it could be

minimal. REEL 1 ENDS

(Noise)

PRESIDENT: How?

DEAN: Well, I think by just thinking it all

through first, as to how some people could

be granted immunity, uh...

PRESIDENT: Like Magruder?

DEAN: Yeah--to come forward. Uh, but some people

are going to have to go to jail. That's the

long and short of it, also.

PRESIDENT: Who? Let's talk about that.

DEAN: All right. Uh, I think I could, for one.

PRESIDENT: You go to jail?

DEAN: That's right.

PRESIDENT: Oh, hell no. I can't see how you can. But,

I--no...

DEAN: Well, because...

PRESIDENT: I can't see how, that--let me say I can't

see how a legal case could be made against

you, J-, uh, John.

DEAN: It'd be, it'd be tough, but you know, uh...

PRESIDENT: Well.

MARCH 21, 1973 FROM 10:12 TO 11:55 A.M. 56

DEAN: I can see people pointing fingers, you know,

to get it out of their own--put me in the

impossible position, disproving too many

negatives.

PRESIDENT: Oh, no. Uh, let me say I--not because

you're here--but Just looking at it from a

cold legal standpoint: You are a lawyer, you

were a counsel--you were doing what you were

doing as a counsel, and you were not, uh,...

DEAN: (Clears throat)

PRESIDENT: doing anything like that. You mean--hat

would you go to jail on (unintelligible)?

DEAN: The obstruc-, the obstruction of justice.

PRESIDENT: The obstruction of justice?

DEAN: That's the only one that bothers me.

PRESIDENT: Well, I don't know. I think that one, I

think that, I feel could be cut off at the

pass. Maybe the obstruction of Justice...

DEAN: It could be a -- you know how -- one of the

-- that's, that's why -- (sighs)

PRESIDENT: Sometimes it's well to give them...

DEAN: (Sighs)

PRESIDENT: something, and then they don't want the

bigger fish then.

DEAN: That's right. I think that, uh, I think

that with proper coordination with the

Department of Justice, Henry Petersen is the

only man I know bright enough and

knowledgeable enough in the criminal laws

and the process that could really tell us

hot this could De put together so it did the

maximum to carve it away with a minimum

damage to individuals involved.

MARCH 21, 1973 FROM 10:12 TO 11:55 A.M. 57

(Noise)

PRESIDENT: Petersen doesn't know the whole story?

DEAN: No, I know he doesn't now. I know he

doesn't now. I am talking about somebody

who I have over the years grown to have

faith in. (Banging noises in background)

(Clears throat) It is possible that he'd

have to, he'd have to, uh -- put him in a

very difficult situation as the Head of the

Criminal Division of the United States

Department of Justice, and the oath of

office...

PRESIDENT: Tell me -- talking about your obstruction of

justice role' I don't see it. I can't see

it. You're...

DEAN: Well, I've been a con-, I have been a

conduit for information on, on taking care

of people out there who are guilty of

crimes.

PRESIDENT: Oh, you mean like the, uh, oh--the

blackmail.

DEAN: The blackmail right.

PRESIDENT: Well, I wonder if that part of it can't be,

(pause)I wonder if that doesn't--let me put

it frankly: I wonder if that doesn't have to

be continued?

DEAN: (Clears throat)

PRESIDENT: Let me cut it this way, let us suppose that

you get, you, you get the million bucks and

you get the proper way to handle it, and you

could hold that side.

DEAN: Um huh.

PRESIDENT: It would seem to me that would be

worthwhile.

DEAN: (Clears throat)

PRESIDENT: Now we have...

MARCH 21, 1973 FROM 10:12 TO 11:55 A.M. 58

DEAN: Well, that's, yeah that's...

PRESIDENT: One problem; you've got a problem here. You

have the problem of Hunt and uh, his, uh,

his clemency.

DEAN: That's right. And you're going to have the

clemency problem for the others. They all

would expect to be out and that may put you

in a position that's Just...

PRESIDENT: Right.

DEAN: untenable at some point. You know, the

Watergate Hearings just over, Hunt now

demanding clemency or he is going to blow.

And politically it'd be impossible for, you

know, you to do it. You know, after

everybody...

PRESIDENT: That's right.

DEAN: I am not sure that you will ever be able to

deliver on the clemency. It may be just too

hot.

PRESIDENT: You can't do it till after the '74

elections, that's for sure. But even

then...

DEAN: (Clears throat)

PRESIDENT: your point is that even then you couldn't do

it.

DEAN: That's right. It may further involve you in

a way you shouldn't be involved in this.

PRESIDENT: No it's wrong, that's for sure.

DEAN: Well, whatever, you know, I, there've been

some bad Judgments made. There've been some

necessary Judgments made. Uh...

MARCH 21, 1973 FROM 10:12 TO 11:55 A.M. 59

PRESIDENT: Before the election.

DEAN: Before the election and, in a way, the

necessary ones, you know, before the

election. There, you know we've, this was

to me there was no way

PRESIDENT: Yeah.

DEAN: that uh...

PRESIDENT: Yeah.

DEAN: But to burden this second Administration

PRESIDENT: We're all in on it.

DEAN: was something that, it's something that is

not going to go away.

PRESIDENT: No it isn't.

DEAN: It is not going to go away, sir.

PRESIDENT: Not going to go away, it is, the idea that,

uh, that, uh, well, that uh, that people are

going to get tired of it and all that sort

of thing...

DEAN: Anything will spark it back into life. It's

got to be, uh, it's got to be...

PRESIDENT: Well, it's too much to the partisan interest

of others to spark it back into life.

DEAN: And it seems to me the only way that...

PRESIDENT: Who else, though? Let's, let's leave you

and I don't, I don't think on the, on, uh,

on the obstruction of Justice thing, I think

that one we can handle. I, I don't know why

I feel that way, but I...

DEAN: Well, it is possible that I...

MARCH 21, 1973 FROM 10:12 TO 11:55 A.M. 60

PRESIDENT: I, I think you may be overplaying, but who

else, uh, who else, who else do you think,

has, uh

DEAN: Potential criminal liability?

PRESIDENT: Yeah.

DEAN: I think Ehrlichman does. I think that, uh,

I think...

PRESIDENT: Why Ehrlichman? What 'd he do?

DEAN: Because this conspiracy to burglarize the,

uh, uh, Ellsberg office.

PRESIDENT: You mean, that, that is provided Hunt

breaks.

DEAN: Well, uh, the, the funny, let me say

something interesting about that. Within

the files...

PRESIDENT: Oh, I saw that. The picture.

DEAN: Yeah, the picture. That, see, that's not

all that buried. And, while we can, we've

got, I think we've got it buried, there is

no telling when it's going to pop up. Uh,

the Cubans, uh, could start this whole

thing. Uh, when the Ervin Committee starts

running down why this mysterious telephone

was here at the White House, uh, listed in

the name of a secretary, one of these, some

of these secretaries have a little idea

about this, and they can be broken down

Just...

PRESIDENT: Sure

DEAN: so fast. That's another thing I missed,

missed in the cycle, in the circle. Uh,

Liddy's secretary for example, is

knowledgeable. Magruder's secretary is

knowledgeable.

MARCH 21, 1973 FROM 10:12 TO 11:55 A.M. 61

PRESIDENT: Sure.

DEAN: Uh...

PRESIDENT: So Ehrlichman on the, uh...

DEAN: But what I am coming to you today with is I

don't have a plan of how to solve it right

now, but I think it's at the Juncture that

we should begin to think in terms of, of how

to cut the losses; how to minimize the

further growth of this thing; rather than

further compound it by, you know, ultimately

paying these guys forever.

PRESIDENT: Yeah.

DEAN: I think we've got to look...

PRESIDENT: But at the moment, don't you agree that

you'd better get the Hunt thing? I mean,

that's worth it, at the moment.

DEAN: That, that's worth buying time on, right

PRESIDENT: And that's buying time on, I agree.

DEAN: Uh, the, the Grand Jury is going to

reconvene next week after Sirica sentences.

Uh, but that's why I think that, you know,

that John and Bob have met with me. They've

never met with Mitchell on this. We've

never had a real doom and out with

everybody, that, uh, has the most to lose.

And the most, and it is the most danger for

you to have them have criminal liability. I

think Bob has a potential criminal

liability, frankly, I think, in other words,

a lot of these people could be indicted.

They might never...

PRESIDENT: Yeah.

DEAN: might never, uh, be convicted; but just the

thought of

MARCH 21, 1973 FROM 10:12 TO 11:55 A.M. 62

PRESIDENT: Suppose...

PRESIDENT: Suppose that they are indicted in this.

Suppose...

DEAN: I think that would be devastating.

PRESIDENT: Suppose the worst, that Bob is indicted and

Ehrlichman is indicted. And I must say,

maybe we just better then try to tough it

through. You get my point.

DEAN: That's right. That...

PRESIDENT: If, if, if, for example, our, uh, our -- say

well, let's cut our losses and you say we're

going to go down the road, see if we can cut

our losses, and no more blackmail and all

the rest, and the thing blows and they

indict Bob and the rest. Jesus, you'd never

recover from that, John.

DEAN: That's right.

PRESIDENT: It's better to fight it out instead. You

see, that's the other thing, the other

thing. It's better Just to fight it out,

and not let people testify, so forth and so

on. Now, on the other hand, we realize that

we have these weaknesses-- that, uh, (pause)

we've got this weakness in terms of-(pause)

blackmail.

DEAN: It's what, if we, you know, there, there are

two routes, you know: One is to figure out

how to cut the losses and, and, and minimize

the, the human impact and get you up and out

and away from it, in any way, uh, in, in a

way that would never come back to haunt.

Uh, that is one, one general alternative.

The other is to go (cough) down the road,

Just hunker doom, fight it at every corner,

every turn, uh, don't let people testify,

cover it up is what we're

MARCH 21, 1973 FROM 10:12 TO 11:55 A.M. 63

really talking about. Just keep it buried,

and Just hope that we can do it, hope that

we make good decisions at the right time,

and keep our heads cool, uh, Ire make the

right moves, uh...

PRESIDENT: And just take the heat.

DEAN: And just take the heat.

PRESIDENT: Now, with the second line of attack. You

discussed this though I do want you to still

consider my scheme of having y--, you brief

the Cabinet, Just in very general terms

(unintelligible}in very general terms, and

maybe some, some very general statement with

regard to my-investigation. Answer

questions, and to, and to basically on the

question of what they told you, not what you

know

DEAN: Right.

PRESIDENT: Haldeman is not involved. Ehrlichman...

DEAN: Oh, I can, you know., if, if we go that

route, sir, I can, I can give a show that,

you know, there's uh, we can sell, you know,

Just about like we were selling Wheaties on

our position. There's no...

PRESIDENT: The problem that you have are these, uh,

mine fields down the road. I think the most

difficult problem is the, are the, are the,

are the guys that are going to Jail. I

think you're right about that. I agree.

Now. And also the fact that we're not going

to be able to give them clemency.

DEAN: That's right. How long will they take? How

long will they sit there? I don't know. We

don't know, what they’ll be sentenced to.

There's always a chance...

PRESIDENT: Thirty years, isn't it? Maximum?

MARCH 21, 1973 FROM 10:12 TO 11:55 A.M. 64

DEAN: It could be. You know, they haven't

announced yet, but it, uh...

PRESIDENT: Isn't that what the potential is?

DEAN: Uh, it's even higher than that. It's about

fifty years, with all the...

PRESIDENT: So ridiculous.

DEAN: Oh well, you know, what's so incredible is,

the, these fellows who, who, sh...

PRESIDENT: People break and enter, and so forth, and

get two years.

DEAN: Well, the other thing...

PRESIDENT: No, no weapons. No results. What the hell

are they talking about?

DEAN: The, the individuals who are charged with

shooting John Stennis are on the street.

They were given, you know, uh, one was put

on his personal recognizance rather than

bond. They've got these fellows all stuck

with hundred thousand dollar bonds. The

same Judge -- Sirica -- let one guy, who,

who's (laughs) charged with shooting a

United States Senator, out on the street.

PRESIDENT: Sirica did?

DEAN: Yeah. It's just, it's phenomenal.

PRESIDENT: I thought he was a hardliner Judge.

DEAN: He's a, he's is Just a, a peculiar animal,

and uh, he set, set the bond for one of the

others -- I don't have all the facts, but he

set the bond for one of the others --

somewhere around fifty or sixty thousand

dollars. But still, that guy is in, but

didn't make bond, but you know, sixty

thousand dollars as opposed to a hundred

thousand dollars for these guys is

phenomenal.

MARCH 21, 1973 FROM 10:12 TO 11:55 A.M. 65

PRESIDENT: When could you have this meeting Judith

these fellows, as I think that time is of

the essence, in my opinion.

DEAN: (Clears throat)

PRESIDENT: Could you do it this afternoon?

DEAN: Well, Mitchell isn't here, and...

PRESIDENT: Tomorrow?

DEAN: It might be, might be worth it to have him

come down. And, now, I think that Bob and

John did not want to talk to, to John about

this, John Mitchell. And I don't believe

they've had any conversations with him about

it.

(Loud noises on desk)

DEAN: Bob and I have talked about just what we're

talking about this morning. I told him I

thought that you should have the facts, and

he agrees. Cause we've got some tough calls

down the road if we...

PRESIDENT: Let me say, though that Hunt

(unintelligible) (dragging noise on desk)

hard line, and that a convicted felon is

goings to go out and squeal (unintelligible)

(dragging noise on desk) as we about this

(unintelligible) decision (unintelligible)

turns on that.

DEAN: Well, we can always, you know, on the other

side, ore can always charge them with black-

mailing us, and it's. you know, this is

absurd stuff they're saying and... (Pause)

PRESIDENT: That's right. You see, even the way you put

it out here, of course if it all came out,

it may never, it may not never, never get

there.

(Haldeman enters the room)

MARCH 21, 1973 FROM 10:12 TO 11:55 A.M. 66

(Loud noises on desk)

PRESIDENT: I was talking to John about this, uh, this

whole situation, and I think we, uh, so that

we can get away from the bits and pieces

that have broken out. He is right in having

in, in, uh, recommending that, that, uh,

that there be a meet' no at the very first

possible time. Ehrlichman, and now

Ehrlichman's gone on to California but, uh,

is today, uh, is tomorrow Thursday?

HALDEMAN: Uh, he John doesn't go until Friday.

DEAN: Friday...

PRESIDENT: Well, in any event, could we do it.

Thursday? This meeting: This meeting you

can't do it today, can you?

DEAN: I don't think so. I was suggesting a

meeting with Mitchell...

PRESIDENT: Mitchell, Ehrlichman, yourself and Bob'

that's all. Now, Mitchell has to be there

because, uh, uh, he is seriously involved

and, uh, we're trying to keep, uh, we've got

to see how we, uh, hole we handle it from

here on. We are in the process of having to

determine which way to go and, uh, John has

thought it through, as well as he can. I

do, I don't want Moore there on this

occasion.

DEAN: No.

PRESIDENT: You haven't told Moore all of this, have

you?

DEAN: Moore's got, uh, by being with me, has more

bits and pieces. I've had to give him

PRESIDENT: Right.

DEAN: because he is making

MARCH 21, 1973 FROM 10:12 TO 11:55 A.M. 67

PRESIDENT: Right.

DEAN: judgments that, uh...

PRESIDENT: Well, the point is, once you get down to the

PR, once you decide what you're going to do,

then we can let him know, and so forth and

so on. But it is the kind of thing, I think

what really has to happen is for you to sit

down with those three and for you to tell

them exactly what you told me.

DEAN: Um huh.

PRESIDENT: It may take him about thirty-five or forty-

five minutes. In other words he knows,

John, uh, uh, knows about everything and

also what all the, uh, what all the

potential criminal liabilities are, you

know, whether it's, uh, what's it like that

thing, what about, uh obstruction ,

DEAN: Obstruction of justice. Right.

PRESIDENT: So forth and so on. And, uh, the uh, I

think, I think that's...Then we've go to,

uh, see what the line is. Whether the line

is one of continuing to, uh, run a, try to

run a total stonewall, and take the heat

from that, uh, having in mind the fact that,

uh, there are vulnerable points there; the

vulnerable points being that, well, the

first vulnerable points would be obvious.

In other words, it would be, if, uh, uh, one

of the, uh, defendants, particularly Hunt,

of course, who is the most vulnerable my

opinion, might, uh, blow the whistle, and

he, he and his price is pretty high, but at

least, uh, we should, we should buy the time

on that, uh, as I as I pointed out to John.

Apparently...Who, who is dealing with Hunt

at the moment now that

Colson's(unintelligible) -

DEAN: Well, uh, Mitchell's lawyer and, uh...

MARCH 21, 1973 FROM 10:12 TO 11:55 A.M. 68

PRESIDENT: Colson's lawyer (unintelligible)

DEAN: Colson's lawyer, both.

PRESIDENT: familiar with him. Hunt has at least got to

know before he is sentenced that he's...

HALDEMAN: Who's Colson's lawyer? (Characterization

deleted) in his firm?

DEAN: Shapiro. Right. Who lied to the, you know,

who just...The other day, he came up and...

HALDEMAN: Colson's told him everything, hasn't he?

DEAN: Yup, I gather he has. Uh, the other thing

that bothered me about that is that he's,

uh, a chatter. He came up to Fred Fielding,

of my office, at Colson's going away party.

I didn't go over there. It was over at the

Blair House the other night. And he said

to, uh, Fred, he said, "Well, Chuck has had

some mighty serious words, with, uh, his,

his friend Howard and had some mighty

serious messages back." Now, you know,

what's a lawyer how does he know what

Fielding knows? Cause Fielding knows

virtually nothing. (Laughs)

PRESIDENT: Well, anyway.

HALDEMAN: That's, that's where your dangers lie, is in

all these stupid human errors developing.

PRESIDENT: That's very...

DEAN: That's...that's...

PRESIDENT: Well, the point is, Bob, let's face it, the

secretaries know, the assistants know.

There's a lot of the, many of the damn

principals may be hard as a rock, but you

never know when they're going to crack.

But, so, we'll see, we'll see. First you've

got the Hunt problem. That ought to be

handled.

MARCH 21, 1973 FROM 10:12 TO 11:55 A.M. 69

DEAN: Yeah.

PRESIDENT: Uh, incidentally, I do not think Colson

should sit in this meeting. Do you agree?

DEAN: No. I would agree.

PRESIDENT: Okay. Uh, how then...who does sit and talk

to Colson? Because somebody has to,

shouldn't we talk to...

DEAN: Chuck, uh...

PRESIDENT: talks too much.

DEAN: (Sighs) I, I, you know, I like Chuck

(laughs) but, uh, I don't want Chuck, to

know anything that I'm doing frankly.

(Laughs)

PRESIDENT: All right.

HALDEMAN: I think that's right. I, I think you want

to be careful not to give Chuck any more

knowledge than he's already got.

DEAN: That's right.

PRESIDENT: Sure. Well...

DEAN: I wouldn't want Chuck to even know of the

meeting, frankly.

PRESIDENT: Fortunately, fortunately, with Chuck, it is

very, I, I talk to him about many, many

political things, but I never talk about

this sort of thing 'cause he's, uh, he's

very harmful, I mean I don't think... he

must be damn sure I don't know anything.

And I don't. In fact, I'm rather surprised

at what you told me today. From what you

said, I gathered the impression, and of

course, your, your, your analysis does not

for sure, uh, indicate that Chuck knew that

it was a bugging operation for certain.

MARCH 21, 1973 FROM 10:12 TO 11:55 A.M. 70

DEAN: That's correct. 1 don't have...

PRESIDENT: On the other hand, on the other hand that,

DEAN: Chuck, Chuck denies that...

PRESIDENT: on the other hand, the other side of that is

that Hunt had conversations with Chuck, and

it may be that Hunt told Chuck that it was

bugging, and so forth and so on.

DEAN: Um huh.

PRESINENT: Is that correct?

DEAN: Um hum. They were very close. They, they

talked too much, uh, about too many things.

PRESIDENT: Yeah.

DEAN: They were intimate on this sort of (coughs)

HALDEMAN: Well then Chuck...

PRESIDENT: There's another thing you can't...

HALDEMAN: Chuck has a problem. Chuck loves,

PRESIDENT: Yeah.

HALDEMAN he loves what he does.

PRESIDENT: Yeah.

HALDEMAN: He likes to talk about it.

PRESIDENT: He also is a name dropper. Chuck might have

gone around and talked to Hunt and said

"Well, I was talking to the President, and

the President feels we ought to get

information about this, or that or the other

thing," and so forth and so on.

DEAN: Well, Liddy is the same way, and...

MARCH 21, 1973 FROM 10:12 TO 11:55 A.M. 71

PRESIDENT: I have talked to, I have talked to...this

and that and the other thing. I, I have

never talked to anybody, but I have talked

to Chuck and John and the rest and I am sure

that Chuck may have, Chuck might have even

talked to Hunt along those lines.

HALDEMAN: I would...well, anything could happen. I

would doubt that.

DEAN: I would doubt that too.

HALDEMAN: I don't think he would. Uh, Chuck is a name

dropper in one sense, but not in that sense.

PRESIDENT: Well, then do you think...

HALDEMAN: I think he very carefully keeps the

President out of things. (Noise)

PRESIDENT: Right.

HALDEMAN: Except when he's doing it, when he's very

intentionally bringing the President in for,

for the President's purposes.

PRESIDENT: He had the impression though, apparently,

that he, he was the, as it turns out, really

is, the trigger man. Uh, may of damn well

have been the trigger man where he just

called up and said, "Now look here Jeb, go

ahead and get that information. And

(unintelligible) got to be a decision on it

at that time. This is February.

DEAN: Yes sir, I figure it was some other...

PRESIDENT: It must be the...I...it must have been

after...

DEAN: This was the call to Magruder from Colson

saying “Fish or cut bait.” Hunt and Liddy

were in his office.

HALDEMAN: In Colson's office?

MARCH 21, 1973 FROM 10:12 TO 11:55 A.M. 72

DEAN: In Colson's office. And he called Magruder

and said, "Let's fish or cut bait on this

operation. Let's get it going.”

HALDEMAN: Oh, really?

DEAN: Yeah. This is...Magruder tells me this.

HALDEMAN: Of course. That...

PRESIDENT: Well, on the other hand...

HALDEMAN: Now wait, Magruder testified

(unintelligible)

(Several voices unintelligible)

DEAN: Chuck, Chuck, also told me that, uh, Hunt

and Liddy were in his office and he made a

call.

HALDEMAN: Oh, okay.

DEAN: So it did, it was corroborated by the, the

principal.

HALDEMAN: Hunt-and Liddy haven't told you that,

though?

DEAN: No.

HALDEMAN: You haven't talked to Hunt and Liddy?

DEAN: I talked to Liddy once, right after the

incident.

PRESIDENT: I'm sorry about that. All right, the point

is, the point is this, that uh, it's now

time, though, to, uh, that Mitchell has got

to sit down, and know where the hell all

this thing stands too. You see, John is

concerned, as you know, Bob, about, uh,

Ehrlichman, which, uh, worries me a great

deal because it's a. uh, uh, a-, and this

is why the Hunt problem is so serious, uh,

because, uh, it-had nothing to do with the

campaign.

MARCH 21, 1973 FROM 10:12 TO 11:55 A.M. 73

DEAN: Right, it, uh...

PRESIDENT: Properly, it has to do with the Ellsberg

thing. I don't know what the hell, uh...

HALDEMAN: But why...

PRESIDENT: Yeah. Why...I don't know.

HALDEMAN: What I was going to say is...

PRESIDENT: What is the answer on that? How do you keep

that out? I don't know. Well, we can't

keep it out if Hunt..if..you see the point

is, it is irrevelant. Once it has gotten to

this point...

DEAN: You might, you might put it on a national

security ground basis, which it really, it

was.

HALDEMAN: It absolutely was.

DEAN: And just say that, uh...

PRESIDENT: Yeah.

DEAN: that this is not, you know, this was...

PRESIDENT: Not paid with CIA funds

DEAN: Uh...

PRESIDENT: No, seriously, National security. We had to

get information for national security

grounds.

DEAN: Well, then the question is, why didn't the

CIA do it or why didn't the FBI do it?

PRESIDENT: Because they were...we had to do it, we had

to do it, on a confidential basis.

HALDEMAN: Because we were checking them?

MARCH 21, 1973 FROM 10:12 TO 11:55 A.M. 74

PRESIDENT: Neither could be trusted

HALDEMAN: Well, I think...

PRESIDENT: That's the way I view it.

HALDEMAN: That has never been proven. There was

reason to question their

PRESIDENT: Yeah.

HALDEMAN: Position

PRESIDENT: You see really, with the bombing thing and

everything coming out, the whole thing was

national security.

DEAN I think we can probably get, get by on that.

PRESIDENT: I think on that one, I think you'd simply

say this was a national security

investigation that was conducted. And the

same with the drug field with Krogh. Krogh

could say I...if Krogh were to

if(unintelligible) he feels that-he

perjured(unintelligible) it was a national

security matter. That's why...

DEAN: That's the way Bud rests easy, because he's,

he's, he's convinced that he was doing

it...he said there was treason about the

country, and it could have threatened the

way the war was handled. Uh, and by God...

PRESIDENT: Bud, Bud said this?

DEAN: Yes

PRESIDENT: Well, Bud could say that and say this, it

does involve...it was a national security

and I was not in a position to divulge it.

Well anyway, let's don't go beyond that.

We're...forget...but I do think now we, uh,

I mean, there is, there is a time, now when

you don't want to talk to Mitchell. He

MARCH 21, 1973 FROM 10:12 TO 11:55 A.M. 75

CONT: doesn't want to talk, and the rest. But

John is right. There must be a, must be a

four way talk here of the particular ones

that we can trust here. Uh, we've got to

get a decision on it. It's not something

that...you see you got two ways, basically.

There are really only two ways you could go.

You either decide the whole God damned thing

is so full of problems with potential

criminal liability which is what concerns

me. I don't give a damn about the

publicity. We could, we could rock that

through, if we had to let the whole thing

hang out. It would be a lousy story for a

month. But I can take it. But the point

is, I don't want any criminal liability.

That's the thing that I am concerned about

for members of the White House staff and I

would trust for members of the Committee.

And that means Magruder.

DEAN: Um.

PRESIDENT: Let's face it. He's the one that's, uh...

I think Magruder is the major guy over

there.

DEAN: I think he's got the most serious problem.

PRESIDENT: Yeah.

HALDEMAN: Well, then we talked about yesterday,

you've,

got a, you got a question where your cut off

point is. There is a possibility of cutting it at Liddy,

PRESIDENT: Yeah.

HALDEMAN: But to accomplish that requires:

PRESIDENT: Requires what?

HALDEMAN: Requires continued perjury by Magruder.

MARCH 21, 1973 FROM 10:12 TO 11:55 A.M. 76

PRESIDENT: Yeah. And it requires total...

DEAN: commitment...

PRESIDENT: Control, got total, got total control over

all of the defendants, which...in other

words (unintelligible)

DEAN: The basic position...

HALDEMAN: They don't know anything, beyond Liddy.

DEAN: Uh, no. Other than the fact, other 'hen the

fact that Liddy, they have hearsay, uh...

HALDEMAN: But we don't know about Hunt. Maybe Hunt

has it tied in to Colson. We don't know

that, though really.

DEAN: No.

PRESIDENT: I think Hunt knows a hell of a lot more.

DEAN: Yeah, I do too. And now what McCord...

HALDEMAN: You think he does? I am afraid you're

right, but, uh, we don't know that.

PRESIDENT: I think we better assume it. I think Colson

DEAN: And he's playing hard ball, and he wouldn't

play hard...

HALDEMAN: Is he?

DEAN: Yeah. He wouldn't play hard ball unless he

were pretty confident that he could cause an

awful lot of grief.

HALDEMAN: Really?

DEAN: Yeah.

MARCH 21, 1973 FROM 10:12 TO 11:55 A.M. 77

PRESIDENT: He is playing hard boiled ball with regard

to Ehrlichman, for example, and that sort of

thing. He knows what he's got.

HALDEMAN: What's he planning on, money?

DEAN: Yeah, money and...

HALDEMAN: Really

DEAN: Oh, yeah. He's uh...

PRESIDENT: It's a hundred and twenty thousand dollars.

It's about what, about how much, which is

easy. I mean, it's not easy to deliver, but

it is easy to get. Uh, now, uh (nine

seconds of silence) If that, if what, if

that, if that is the case, if it's Just that

way, then the thing to do is, if, if, the

thing all, uh, cracks out...if, if for, if,

for example, you say look we're not, we're

not going to continue to try to, let's state

it frankly...cut our losses...that's just

one way you could go...on the assumption

that we're, we, by continuing to cut our

losses, we're not going to win. That in the

end, we are going to be bled to death, and

it's all going to come out anyway, and then

you get the worst of both worlds. We are

going to lose and people are going to...

HALDEMAN: And look (unintelligible)

PRESIDENT: And we're going to look like we covered up.

So that we can't do. Now. The other, the

other, uh, the other line, however, uh, if

you, if you take that line, that we're not

going to continue to cut our losses, that

means then `;e have to look square in the

eye as to what the hell those losses are,

and see which people can...so we can avoid

criminal liability. Right?

DEAN: That's right.

MARCH 21, 1973 FROM 10:12 TO 11:55 A.M. 78

PRESIDENT: And that means, we got to, we've got to keep

it off of you, uh, which I, which I

(unintelligible) obstruction of Justice

thing. We've got to keep it off Ehrlichman.

We've got to keep it, naturally, off of Bob,

off Chapin, if possible, and Strachan.

Right?

DEAN: Um hum.

PRESIDENT: And Mitchell. Right?

DEAN: Um hum.

PRESIDENT: Now.

HALDEMAN: And Magruder, if you can. But that's the

one you pretty much have to give up.

PRESIDENT: But, but Magruder, Magruder, uh, uh, John's,

Dean's point is that if Magruder goes doyen,

he'll pull everybody with him.

HALDEMAN: That's my view.

PRESIDENT: Is it?

HALDEMAN: Yup. I think Jeb, I don't think he wants

to. And I think he even would try not to,

but I don't think he is able not to.

DEAN: I don't think he is strong enough, when it

really...

HALDEMAN: Well, not that' not that...

PRESIDENT: Well, another way, another way to do it then

Bob is to...and John realizes this...is to,

Pause) uh, continue to try to cut our

losses. w we have to look at that course of

action. First, it is going to require

approximately a million dollars to take care

of the jackasses that are in jail. That

could be, that could be arranged.

MARCH 21, 1973 FROM 10:12 TO 11:55 A.M. 79

HALDEMAN or

DEAN: Yeah.

PRESIDENT: That could be arranged. But you realize

that after we're gone. I mean, assuming

these (unintelligible) are, they're going to

crack, you know what I mean? And that'll be

an unseemly story. Eventually, all the

people aren't going to care that much.

DEAN: That's right. It's...

PRESIDENT: People aren't going to care.

DEAN: So much history will pass between then and

now.

PRESIDENT: In other words, what we're talking about it

no question. But the second thing is we're

not going to be able to deliver on, on any

kind of a, of a clemency thing. You know

Colson has gone around on this clemency

thing with Hunt and the rest.

DEAN: Hunt, Hunt is now talking in terms of being

out by Christmas.

HALDEMAN: This year?

DEAN: This year. Uh, he was told by O'Brien, who

is my conveyor of doom back and forth...

HALDEMAN: Yeah.

DEAN: uh, that, uh, hell, he'd be lucky if he were

out a year from now, after the Ervin

hearings were, uh, you know, over. He said,

"How in the Lord's name could you be

commuted that quickly?" He said, "Well,

that's my commitment from Colson."

HALDEMAN: By Christmas of this year?

DEAN: Yeah.

MARCH 21, 1973 FROM 10:12 TO 11:55 A.M. 80

HALDEMAN: See, that, that really, that's very

believeable cause Colson

PRESIDENT: Do you think Colson could have told him

HALDEMAN: Colson is an, is an that's, that's your

fatal flaw, really, in Chuck, is he is an

operator in expediency, and he will pay at

the time and where he is whatever he has to,

to accomplish what he's there to do. And

that's...I, I would believe that he has made

that commitment if Hunt says he has. I

would believe he is capable of saying that.

PRESIDENT: The only thing you could do with him would

be to parole him for a period of time

because of his family situation. But you

couldn't provide clemency.

DEAN: No, I...uh, Kleindienst has now got control

of the parole board, and he said that now we

can, we can pull paroles off now where we

couldn't before. So...

PRESIDENT: Well, parole...

HALDEMAN: Yeah, but Kleindienst always tells you that,

and then never delivers.

PRESIDENT: Parole, parole. Let's talk candidly about

that. Parole (unintelligible) in human

terms, and so forth, is something that I

think in Hunt's case you could do Hunt, but

you couldn't do the others. You understand?

DEAN: Well, so much depends upon hoist Sirica

sentences. He can sentence, sentence in a

way that, uh, makes parole even impossible.

PRESIDENT: Oh, he can?

DEAN: Sure. He can do all kinds of permanent

sentences. Yeah. He can be a, just a son-

of-a-bitch, uh, as far, as the whole thing.

(Pause)

MARCH 21, 1973 FROM 10:12 TO 11:55 A.M. 81

HALDEMAN: Of course, can't you appeal on a, on an

unjust sentence, as well as on an unjust

conviction?

DEAN: You've got sixty days to ask the Judge to

review it. There is no appellate review of

sentences.

HALDEMAN: There isn't?

DEAN: Not that I...

PRESIDENT: The judge can review it, yeah.

HALDEMAN: Only the sentencing judge can review his own

sentence?

PRESIDENT: Coming back, though, to this. So you got

that...the, uh, hanging over. Now. If, uh,

you see if you let it hang there, the point

is you could let all or only part...The

point is, your feeling is that we just can't

continue to, to pay the blackmail of these

guys?

DEAN: I think that's our greatest jeopardy.

HALDEMAN: Yeah.

PRESIDENT: Now, let me tell you, it's

DEAN: 'Cause that is...

PRESIDENT: no problem, we could, we could get the

money. There is no problem in that. We

can't provide the clemency. The money can

be provided. Mitchell could provide the way

to deliver it. That could be done. See

what I mean?

HALDEMAN: But, Mitchell says he can't, doesn't he?

MARCH 21, 1973 FROM 10:12 TO 11:55 A.M. 82

DEAN: Mitchell says that, uh...well,

Mitch...that's, it's, you know, there has

been an interesting thing, uh, phenomena all

the way along on this, is that there have

been a lot of people having to pull oars and

not everybody pulls them all the same time,

the same way, because their developed self-

interests.

HALDEMAN: What John is saying is that everybody smiles

at Dean and says, "Well, you better get

something done about it."

DEAN: That's right

PRESIDENT: (Unintelligible)

HALDEMAN: And Mitch..., Mitchell is leaving Dean

hanging out on a...None of us, well maybe

we're doing the same thing to you.

DEAN: That's right.

HALDEMAN: But I...let me say that, that I don't see

how there's any way that you can have the

White House, or anybody presently in the

White House, involved in trying to gin out

of this money.

DEAN: We are already deeply enough in that.

That's the problem, Bob.

PRESIDENT: I thought you said you could handle the

money?

DEAN: Well, in fact, that, uh, when...

PRESIDENT: Kalmbach?

DEAN: Well, Kalmbach, uh, was a...

HALDEMAN: He's not the one

DEAN: No, but when they ran out of that money, as

you know, they came after the three-fifty

that was over here.

MARCH 21, 1973 FROM 10:12 TO 11:55 A.M. 83

PRESIDENT: And they used that, right?

DEAN: And I had to explain what it was (laughs)

for, uh, before I could get the money.

PRESIDENT: Well, you said...

DEAN: Now, they...now, that...they...

HALDEMAN: That was put, that was, that was...in the

first place, that was put back to LaRue.

DEAN: That's right.

HALDEMAN: where it belonged. It wasn't all returned

in a lump sum. It was put back in pieces.

DEAN: That's right.

PRESIDENT: And then LaRue used it for this other

purpose?

DEAN: That's right.

PRESIDENT: Well, I think they can get that.

HALDEMAN: And the balance was all returned to LaRue.

DEAN: That's right.

HALDEMAN: The problem is we don't have any receipt for

that, do we. We have no way of proving

that.

(Pause)

PRESIDENT: I (unintelligible)

DEAN: And I think, I think that was because, you

know, of self-interest over there. Mitchell

should...

HALDEMAN: Mitchell told LaRue not to take it at all.

DEAN: That's right.

MARCH 21, 1973 FROM 10:12 TO 11:55 A.M. 84

HALDEMAN: This is what you told me.

DEAN: That's right. And then you don't give them

a receipt.

PRESIDENT: Well, then, but what happened? LaRue tool

it, and then what?

DEAN: Well, it was sent back to him because we

Just couldn't continue piecemeal giving, you

know, I ask it...Every time I asked for it,

I had to tell Bob I needed some, or

something like that...

PRESIDENT: Yeah

DEAN: and he had to get Gordon Strachan to go up

to his safe and take it out and take it over

to LaRue.

PRESIDENT: Yeah.

DEAN: This was just a forever operation.

PRESIDENT: Then what? Why didn't they take it all to

him?

DEAN: I think it's sent over with him.

HALDEMAN: Well, we had been trying to get a way to get

that money back out of here anyway.

PRESIDENT: Sure.

HALDEMAN: And what this was supposed to be was loans.

This was...

PRESIDENT: Yeah

HALDEMAN: immediate cash needs that was going to be

re..., replenished. And Mitchell was

arguing "You can't take the three-fifty back

till it's all replenished." Isn't that

right?

DEAN: That' s right. Well--in the, uh...

MARCH 21, 1973 FROM 10:12 TO 11:55 A.M. 85

HALDEMAN: And then they never replenished it, so we

just gave it all back anyway.

PRENT: I have a feeling we could handle this one.

Well...

DEAN: Well, first of all, they'd have a hell of a

time proving it. Uh, that's one thing.

Uh...

PRESIDENT: Yeah, yeah...I just have a feeling on it.

But let's now come back to the money, a

million dollars, and so forth and so on.

Let me say that I think you could get that

in cash, and I know money is hard, but there

are ways. That could be (unintelligible).

But the point is, uh, what would you do on

that...Let's, let's look at the hard facts.

DEAN: I mean, that's been very interesting. That

has been, thus far, the most difficult

problem.

PRESIDENT: Why?

DEAN: They have been that's why these fellows have

been on or off the reservation all the way

along.

PRESIDENT: So the hard place is this. Your, your

feeling at the present time is the hell with

the million dollars. In other words, you

say to these fellows, "I am sorry, it is all

off," and let them talk. Right?

DEAN: Well...

PRESIDENT: That, that's the way to do it, isn't it?

DEAN: That...

PRESIDENT: If you want to do it clean (unintelligible)

MARCH 21, 1973 FROM 10:12 TO 11:55 A.M. 86

HALDEMAN: See, then when you do it, it's a way you can

live with. Because the problem with the

blackmail, and that's the thing we kept

raising with you `'hen you said there's a

money problem, when are need twenty thousand

or a hundred thousand or something, was

yeah, that's what you need today. But what

do you need tomorrow and next year and five

years from now'

PRESIDEMT: How long?

DEAN: Well, that was just to get us through

November seventh, though.

HALDEMAN: I recognize that's what we had to give

DEAN: Right.

HALDEMAN: to November seventh. There's no question.

DEAN: Except they could have sold...these fellows

could have sold out to the Democrats for a

fantastic amount.

PRESIDENT: Yeah, these fellows but of course, you know,

these fellows, though, as far as that plan

was concerned.

HALDEMAN: But what is there?

PRESIDENT: As far as what happened up to this time, our

cover there is just going to be the Cuban

Committee did this for them up through the

election.

DEAN: Well, yeah. We can put that together, That

isn't, of course, quite the way it happened,

but, uh...

PRESIDENT: I know, but it's the way it's going to have

to happen.

DEAN: It's going to have to happen.

MARCH 21, 1973 FROM 10:12 TO 11:55 A.M. 87

PRESIDENT: That's right. Finally, though, so you let

it go. So what happens is then they go out

and, uh, and they'll start blowing the

whistle on everybody else. Isn't that what

it really gets down to?

DEAN: Um hum.

PRESIDENT: So that, that would be the, the clean way,

Right?

DEAN: Uh,...

PRESIDENT: Is that really you're..you, you really go so

far as to recommend that?

DEAN: That...no, I wouldn't. I don't think, I

don't think necessarily that's the cleanest

way. One of the..I think that's what we all

need to discuss; is there some way that we

can get our story before a grand jury, and

so, that they can have, have really

investigated the White House on this...I

mean, and I must, I must be perfectly

honest, I haven't really thought through

that alternative. We've been, you know,

been so busy. (Background noise)

PRESIDENT: John

DEAN: on the other containment situation

PRESIDENT: John Ehrlichman, of course, has raised the

point of another grand jury. I just don't

know how you're going to do it. On what

basis. I, I could call for it, but I...

DEAN: That would be, I would think, uh...

PRESIDENT: The President takes the leadership and says,

"Now, in view of all this, uh, stripped land

and so forth, I understand this, but I, I

think I want another grand jury proceeding

and, and we'll have the White House appear

before them." Is that right John?

MARCH 21, 1973 FROM 10:12 TO 11:55 A.M. 89

DEAN: Uh huh.

PRESIDENT: That's the point you see. That would make

the difference. (Noise banging on desk) I

want everybody in the White House called.

And that, that gives you the, a reason not

to have to go up before the (unintelligible)

Committee. It puts it in a, in an executive

session in a sense.

HALDEMAN: Right.

PRESIDENT: Right.

DEAN: Uh, well...

HALDEMAN: And there'd be some rules of evidence.

aren't there?

DEAN: There are rules of evidence.

PRESIDENT: Both evidence and you have lawyers a

HALDEMAN: So you are in a hell of a lot better

position than you are up there.

DEAN: No, you can't have a lawyer before a grand

jury.

PRESIDENT: Oh, no. That's right.

DEAN: You can't have a lawyer before a grand Jury.

HALDEMAN: Okay, but you, but you, you do have rules of

evidence. You can refuse to talk.

DEAN: You can take the Fifth Amendment.

PRESIDENT: That's right. That's right.

HALDEMAN: You can say you forgot, too, can't you?

DEAN: Sure. -

PRESIDENT: That's right.

MARCH 21, 1973 FROM 10:12 TO 11:55 A.M. 89

DEAN: But you can't...you're...very high risk in

perjury situation.

PRESIDENT: That's right. Just be damned sure you say I

don't...

HALDEMAN: Yeah...

PRESIDENT: remember; I can't recall, I can't give any

honest, an answer to that that I can recall.

But that's it.

HALDEMAN: You have the same perjury thing on the Hill,

don't you?

DEAN: That’s right.

PRESIDENT: Oh hell, yes.

HALDEMAN: And, and they'll be doing things on

(unintelligible)

PRESIDENT: My point is, though...

HALDEMAN: which is a hell of a lot worse to deal with.

DEAN: That's right.

PRESIDENT: The grand jury thing has its, uh, uh, uh

view of this they might, uh. Suppose we

have a grand jury proceeding. Would that,

would that, what would that do to the Ervin

thing? Would it go right ahead any way?

DEAN: Probably.

HALDEMAN: If you do it in executive...

PRESIDENT: But then on that score, though, we

have...let me Just, uh, run by that,

that...you do that on a grand jury, we could

then have a much better cause in terms of

saying "Look this is a grand jury, in which,

uh, the prosecutor..." How about a special

prosecutor? We could use Peterson, or use

another one. You see he is probably

suspect. Would you call...

MARCH 21, 1973 FROM 10:12 TO 11:55 A.M. 90

DEAN: No.

PRESIDENT: in another prosecutor?

DEAN: I'd like to have Petersen on our side,

advising us (laughs) frankly.

PRESIDENT: Frankly, well, Petersen is honest. Is

anybody about to be, question him, are they?

DEAN: No, no, but he'll get a barrage when, uh,

these Watergate hearings start.

PRESIDENT: Yes, but he can go up and say that he's he's

been told to go further in the Grand Jury

and go into this and that, and the other

thing. Call everybody in the White House.

I want them to come. I leant the, uh, uh,

to go to the Grand Jury.

DEAN: This may result...this may happen even

without our calling for it, when, uh, when

these, uh...

PRESIDENT: Vesco?

DEAN: No. Well, that's one possibility. But

also, when these people go back before the

Grand Jury, here, they are going to pull all

these criminal defendants back in before the

Grand Jury and immunize them

PRESIDENT: And immunize them: Why? Who? Are you going

to...on what?

DEAN: Uh, the U. S. Attorney's Office will.

PRESIDENT: To do what?

DEAN: To talk about anything further they want to

talk about.

PRESIDENT: Yeah. What do they gain out of it?

DEAN: Nothing.

MARCH 21, 1973 FROM 10:12 TO 11:55 A.M. 91

PRESIDENT: To hell with then.

DEAN: They, they're going to stonewall it, uh, as

it now stands. Except for Hunt. That's

why, that's the leverage in his threat.

HALDEMAN: This is Hunt's opportunity.

DEAN: This is Hunt's opportunity.

PRESIDENT: That's why, that's why...

HALDEMAN: God, if he can lay this...

PRESIDENT: that's why your, for your immediate thing

you've got no choice with Hunt but the

hundred and twenty or whatever it is.

Right?

DEAN: That's right.

PRESIDENT: Would you agree that that's a buy time

thing, you better damn well get that done,

but fast?

DEAN: I think he ought to be given some signal

anyway, to, to...

PRESIDENT Yes.

DEAN: Yeah...you know.

PRESIDENT: Well, for Christ's sakes, get it fir, a, in

a way that, uh (pause) who's, who's going to

talk to him? Colson? He's the one who's

supposed to know him.

DEAN: Well, Colson doesn't have any money though.

That's the thing. That's been our, one of

the real problems. They have, uh, been

unable to raise any money. A million

dollars in cash, or, or the like, has been

Just a very difficult problem as we've

discussed before. Apparently, Mitchell has

talked to Pappas, and I called him

MARCH 21, 1973 FROM 10:12 TO 11:55 A.M. 92

last...John asked me to call him last night

after our discussion and after you'd met

with John to see where that was. And I, I

said, "Have you talked to, to Pappas?" He

was at home, and Martha picked up the phone

so it was all in, in code. "Did you talk to

the Greek?" And he said, uh, "Yes, I have."

And I said, "Is the Greek bearing gifts?" He

said, "'tell, I `'ant to call you tomorrow

on that."

PRESIDENT: Well, look, uh, what is it that you need on

that, uh, when, uh, uh? Now look

(unintelligible) I am, uh unfamiliar with

the money situation.

DEAN: Well that, you know it, it sounds easy to

do, apparently, until, uh, everyone is out

there doing it and that's where our

breakdown has, has come every time.

PRESIDENT: Well, if you had it, where would you, how

would you get it to somebody?

DEAN: Well, I, uh, I gather LaRue just leaves it

in mail boxes and things like that, and

tells Hunt to go pick it up. Someone phones

Hunt and tells him to pick it up. As I say'

we're a bunch of amateurs in that business.

HALDEMAN: That was the thing that we thought Mitchell

ought to be able to know holy to find some-

body who could do all that sort of thing,

because none of us know how to.

DEAN: That's right. You got to wash money and all

that sort, you know, if you get a hundred

thousand out of a bank, and it all comes in

serialized bills, and...

PRESIDENT: Oh, I understand.

DEAN: And that means you have to go to Vegas with

it or a bookmaker in 'few York City, and

I've learned all these things after the

fact, it's (laughs) great shape for the next

time around.

MARCH 21, 1973 FROM 10:12 TO 11:55 A.M. 93

(Laughter)

HALDEMAN: Jesus. .

PRESIDENT: Well, the main point now is, the people who

will need the money (unintelligible) well of

course, you've got the surplus from the

campaign. That we have to -account for.

But if there's any other money hanging

around...

HALDEMAN: Well, but what about all the, what about the

money we moved back out of the...here?

DEAN: Apparently, there's some there. That might

be what they can use. Uh, I don't know how

much is left.

PRESIDENT: Kalmbach must have some, doesn't he?

DEAN: Kalmbach doesn't have a cent.

PRESIDENT: He doesn't?

DEAN: See the new law...

HALDEMAN: No, see that three-fifty that we moved out

was all we saved. Because they were afraid

to because of this...that's what I mean;

that's the trouble. We are so God damned

square that (laughs) we'd get caught on

everything.

PRESIDENT: Well, could I suggest that this though, uh,

now, let me, let, let me go back around

(unintelligible) They will then,

uh...(unintelligible)

HALDEMAN: Be careful...

PRESIDENT: The, uh (pause) the grand jury thing has

appeal. Ouestion is, uh...it, it at least

says that we are cooperating

DEAN: Well...

PRESIDENT: with the Grand Jury.

MARCH 21, 1973 FROM 10:12 TO 11:55 A.M. 94

DEAN: Once we, once we start doom any route that

involves the criminal justice system...

PRESIDENT: Yeah.

DEAN: you, you've got to have full appreciation of

there is really no control over that.

PRESIDENT: No sir.

DEAN: Uh, while we did, uh, we had a, an amazing

job of...

PRESIDENT: Yeah, I know.

DEAN: keeping the thing on the track before...

PRESIDENT: Straight.

DEAN: while the FBI was out there, all that...and

that was, uh, only because...

PRESIDENT: Right

DEAN: I had a (unintelligible) of where they were

going.

PRESIDENT: (unintelligible) Right. Right. But you

haven't got that now because everybody else

is going to have a lawyer. Let's take the

new Grand Jury. Uh, the nest Grand Jury

would call Magruder again, wouldn't it?

DEAN: But, based on what information it would?

For example, what hangers if Dean goes in

and gives a story, you know, that here is

the way it all came about. It eras supposed

to be a legitimate operation and it

obviously got off the track. I heard of

these horribles, told Haldeman that we

shouldn't be involved in it. Then

Magruder's going to have to be called in and

questioned about all those meetings again

and the like. And it begins to... again

he'll begin to change his story as to what

he told the Grand Jury the last time.

MARCH 21, 1973 FROM 10:12 TO 11:55 A.M. 95

PRESIDENT: Well...

DEAN: That way, he's in a perjury situation.

HALDEMAN: Except, that's the best leverage you've got

on Jeb...is that he's got to keep his story

straight or he's in real trouble.

DEAN: That's right.

HALDEMAN: Unless they get smart and give him immunity.

If they, immunize .Jeb, then you haste an

interesting problem (pause)

(Tapping on desk)

PRESIDENT: He wouldn't

DEAN: Well, I think we have...

HALDEMAN: (Unintelligible) immunity

DEAN: we have control, we have control over who

gets immunized.

HALDEMAN: Do we?

DEAN: Yeah, I think they wouldn't do that without

our...

PRESIDENT: But you see, the Grand Jury proceeding

(unintelligible) sort of thing, you can go

down that road and then...if...if they

had...I'm just thinking of now how the

President looks. We would be cooperating.

We would be cooperating through the Grand

Jury. Everybody would be behind us. That's

the proper way to do this. It should be

done through a grand jury, not up there in

the kleig lights of the Committee, or...

DEAN: That's right.

MARCH 21, 1973 FROM 10:12 TO 11:55 A.M. 96

PRESIDENT: Nobody's questioning if it's a grand jury,

and so forth. So, and then we would insist

on executive privilege before the Committee,

flat out say, "No we won't do that. We’re

not going to do it. Matter before a grand

jury” and that's that. You see...

HALDEMAN: All right, then you go to the next step.

Would we then...the Grand Ju.., the Grand

Jury meet in executive session?

DEAN: Yes sir, they're...

PRESIDENT: Always...

DEAN: secret sessions, they're secret.

HALDEMAN: Secret session...

PRESIDENT: Secret...

HALDEMAN: All right, then would we agree to release

our statement, our Grand Jury transcripts?

DEAN: That's not, that's not for our...we don't,

have the authority to do that. That's up to

the Court and the Court, thus far, has not

released the ones from the last Grand Jury.

PRESIDENT: They usually are not.

DEAN: It would be highly unusual for a grand fury

to come out. What should happen is...

HALDEMAN: But a lot of the stuff from the Grand Jury

came out.

PRESIDENT: Leaks. Well...

DEAN: It came out of the U. S. Attorney's

Office...

PRESIDENT: Yeah.

MARCH 21, 1973 FROM 10:12 TO 11:55 A.M. 97

DEAN: more than the, the Grand Jury. We don't

know. Some of the Grand Jurors may have

leaked...

PRESIDENT: Right, right.

DEAN: it, but they were...

PRESIDENT: Bob, it's not so bad. It's just not the

bad...or the worst place. But...

HALDEMAN: Well, what I was. I was going the other way

there. I was going to...it might be to our

interest to get it out.

PRESIDENT: Well, we, we could easily do that. Leak out

certain stuff. We could pretty much control

that. We’ve got much more control there.

Now the other possibility is not to go to

the Grand Jury. Then you've got three

things. (1) You Just say, "The hell with

it, we can't raise the money, sorry Hunt,

you can say what you want." And so Hunt

blows the whistle. Right?

DEAN: Right.

PRESIDENT: All right, if that happens, then that raises

some possibilities of other

criminal...because he is likely to say a

hell of a lot of things and he's certain to

get Magruder on it.

DEAN: It'll get Magruder. It'll start the whole

FBI investigation going again.

PRESIDENT: Yeah. So, uh, what else...it'll get

Magruder, it could possibly get Colson.

He's in that danger. .

DEAN: That's right. Could get, uh...

PRESIDENT: Could get Mitchell. Maybe. No.

HALDEMAN: Hunt can't get Mitchell.

MARCH 21, 1973 FROM 10:12 TO 11:55 A.M. 98

DEAN: I don't think Hunt can get Mitchell. Hunt's

got a lot of hearsay.

PRESIDENT: Ehrlichman? He could on the other

thing...except Ehrlichman (unintelligible)

DEAN: Krogh, Krogh could go down in smoke. Uh...

PRESIDENT: Because Krogh, uh...where could anybody

...but on the other hand, Krogh, just says

he, uh, uh, Krogh says this is a national

security matter. Is that what he says?

Yeah, he said that.

DEAN: Yeah, but that won't sell, ultimately, in a

criminal situation. It may be mitigating on

sentences but it won't, uh, in the main

matter...

HALDEMAN: Well, then that...

PRESIDENT: That's right. Try to look around the track.

We have no choice on Hunt but to try to keep

him...

DEAN: Right now, we have no choice.

PRESIDENT: But, but my point is, do you ever have any

choice on Hunt? That's the point.

DEAN: (Sighs)

PRESIDENT: No matter what we do here now, John...

DEAN: Well. if we...

PRESIDENT: Hunt eventually, if he isn't going to get

commuted and so forth, he's going to bloat

the whistle.

DEAN: What I have been trying to conceive of is

how we could lay out everything we know

(sighs) in a way that, you knows we've told

the Grand Jury or somebody else, so that if

a Hunt blows...

MARCH 21, 1973 FROM 10:12 TO 11:55 A.M. 99

PRESIDENT: Yeah.

DEAN so what's new? You know, it's already been

told to a grand Jury, and they found no

criminal liability, and they investigated it

in full. We're sorry fellow...

PRESIDENT: That's right.

DEAN: Uh, we don't, it doesn't...

PRESIDENT: Including Ehrlichman's use of Hunt on the

other deal?

DEAN: That's right.

PRESIDENT: You'd throw that out?

DEAN: Uh, well, Hunt will go to jail for that

too...he's got to understand that.

PRESIDENT: That's the point too. I don't think that

...I wouldn't throw that out. I think I

would limit it to...I don't think you need

to go into every God damned thing Hunt has

done

DEAN: No.

PRESIDENT: He's done some things in the national

security area. Yes, true.

HALDEMAN: We've already said that. Anyway, I mean,

we've laid the ground work for that.

DEAN: Uh huh.

PRESIDENT: But here is the point, John: So you go

that...let's go to the other extreme, the

other, the other angle is to decide on,

well, if you open up the Grand Jury, first,

it won't do any good; it won't be believed.

And then you'll have two things going: The

Grand Jury and you have the other thing. At

least the Grand Jury appeals to

MARCH 21, 1973 FROM 10:12 TO 11:55 A.M. 100

me from the standpoint, it's the President

makes the move. "Since all these charges

have been bandied about, and so forth, the

best thing to do is to...I have ordered, or

I have asked the Grand Jury to look into any

further charges. All charges have been

raised." That's the place to do it and not

before a committee of the Congress. Right?

DEAN: Um hum.

PRESIDENT: Then, however, we may say, Mitchell, et al.,

God we can't risk that, I mean, uh, all

sorts of shit'll break loose there. Then

that leaves you to your third thing. The

third thing is just to continue to...

DEAN: Hunker down and fight it.

PRESIDENT: All right. If you hunker down and fight it,

fight it and what happens?

DEAN: Your...

PRESIDENT: Your view is that, that is, is not really a

viable option.

DEAN: It's a veryit's a high risk. A very high risk.

PRESIDENT: A high risk, because your view is that what

will happen out of that is that it's going

to come out.

Somebody's...Hunt...something's going to

break loose...

DEAN: Something is going to break and...

PRESIDENT: When it breaks it'll look like the President

DEAN: ...is covering up...

REEL 2 ENDS

MARCH 21, 1973 FROM 10:12 TO 11:55 A.M. 101

REEL 3 BEGINS

DEAN: Your...

PRESIDENT: Your view is that that is, is not really a

viable option.

DEAN: In fact, it's a high risk. A very high

risk.

PRESIDENT: A high risk, because your view is that what

will happen out of that is that it's going

to come out.

Somebody's...Hunt...something's going to

break loose...

DEAN: Something is going to break and...

PRESIDENT: When it breaks it'll look like the

President...

DEAN: ...is covering up...

PRESIDENT: is, has covered up a huge, uh, uh, this -

Right?

DEAN That's correct.

HALDEMAN: But you can't contain the charge.

PRESIDENT: That's not...

(Noise)

DEAN: I just don't...

PRESIDENT: You're, you're

DEAN: I don't think it's...

PRESIDENT: You now have, uh, moved away from the hunker

down.

(Noise)

DEAN: Well, I've moved to the point that we've

certainly got to take a, a harder look at

the other alternative, which we haven't

before.

MARCH 21, 1973 FROM 10:12 TO 11:55 A.M. 102

PRESIDENT: The other alternatives.

DEAN: The other alternatives. Right

PRESIDENT: Three other choices, wouldn't you say? As a

matter of fact, your m-, middle ground of

Grand Jury. And then there's finally the on

ground of -- No, I suppose there's a middle

ground.

DEAN: And I would -

PRESIDENT: or the middle grounds of a public statement,

without a Grand Jury.

DEAN: What we need also, sir -

PRESIDENT: And also -

HALDEMAN: But John's view is if we make the public

statement

PRESIDENT: Yeah.

HALDEMAN: that we talked - I raised that this morning,

the, the thing we talked about last night.

PRESIDENT: Yeah.

HALDEMAN: If each of us

PRESIDENT: Yeah

HALDEMAN: make moves,

PRESIDENT: Yeah

HALDEMAN: He says that will immediately lead to a

Grand Jury.

PRESIDENT: Fine - all right, fine.

MARCH 21, 1973 FROM 10:12 TO 11:55 A.M. 103

HALDEMAN: As soon as we make that statement, they'll

have to call a Grand Jury.

PRESIDENT: Then maybe we make the public statement

before the Grand Jury, in order to -

HALDEMAN: So it looks like we are trying to do it

over.

DEAN: All right, say all right, say here are

public statements, and we want, we want, uh,

PRESIDENT: Yeah.

DEAN: full Grand Jury investigation

PRESIDENT: Yeah

DEAN: by the U. S. Attorney's Office

PRESIDENT: Curious to see whether this statement's,

then, that’s right. That I, but - And that

we’ve said that the reason that we had

delayed this is until after the sentencing.

You see, the point is, the reason that time

is of the essence, we can't play around with

this, is that they're going to sentence on

Friday. We're going to move the God damned

thing pretty fast. See what I mean?

DEAN: That's right.

(Pause)

PRESIDENT: So we've got to act, we really haven't time

to (unintelligible)

DEAN: The other, the other thing is that the

Attorney General could call Sirica, and say

that. "The Government has some major

developments that it's considering. Would

you hold sentencing for two weeks?" If we

set ourself on a course of action.

MARCH 21, 1973 FROM 10:12 TO 11:55 A.M. 104

PRESIDENT: Yep, yep.

DEAN: Say, that "The sentencing may be in the

wrong perspective right now. I don't know

for certain, but I just think there are some

things that ? uh, I am not at liberty to

discuss with you, that I want to ask that

the, the court withhold two weeks

sentencing.”

HALDEMAN: So then the story is out: "Sirica Delays

Sentencing Watergate For --"

DEAN: I think, I think that could be handled in a

way between Sirica and Kleindienst that it

would not get out.

PRESIDENT: No.

DEAN: Sirica tells me, I mean Kleindienst

apparently does-have good rapport with

Sirica. He's never talked to him since this

case has developed,

HALDEMAN or

PRESIDENT: Why not?

DEAN: but, uh -

PRESIDENT: That's helpful. Kleindienst could say that

he's, uh, he's working on something and

would like, like, like to have a week. I

wouldn't take two weeks. I would take a

week.

DEAN: I'll tell you the person that I would, you

know, I feel that, uh, we' we could use his

counsel on this, because he understands the

criminal process better than anybody over

here does,

MARCH 21, 1973 FROM 10:12 TO 11:55 A.M. 105

PRESIDENT: Petersen?

DEAN: is Petersen. It, it's awkward for Petersen.

He's the head of the Criminal Division. But to discuss s

related to this case, you will have no relation." Uh, and

proved," or so on and so forth. We almost

need him out of there to take his counsel. That would, u

PRESIDENT: How could you get him out?

DEAN: I think an appeal directly to Henry, uh,

that uh

PRESIDENT: Why doesn't the President - could, could the

President call him in as Special Counsel to

the White - to the, to the White House for the purpose of

DEAN: I have thought of that. I have thought of

that.

PRESIDENT: have him as Special Counsel to represent to

the Grand Jury and the rest.

DEAN: That is one possibility.

PRESIDENT: Yeah.

HALDEMAN: On the basis that Dean has now become a

principal rather than a Special Counsel.

DEAN: Uh huh.

CH 21, 1973 FROM 10:12 TO 11:55 A.M. 106

PRESIDENT: That's right.

DEAN: Uh huh.

PRESIDENT: And that he's a --

DEAN: And I, and I could recommend that to you.

PRESIDENT: He could recommend it, you could recommend

it, and Petersen would come over and be the,

uh - and I'd say, "Now --"

HALDEMAN: Petersen's planning to leave, anyway.

PRESIDENT: And I'd say, "Now,"

DEAN: Is he?

HALDEMAN: Yep--

PRESIDENT: "I want you to get - we want you to (1) -"

We'd say to Petersen, "We want you to get to

the bottom of the God damned thing, Call

another Grand Jury or anything else."

Correct? Well, now you've got to follow up

to see whether Kleindienst can get Sirica to

put off - Right? If that is, if we -

Second, you've got to get Mitchell down

here. You and Ehrlichman and Mitchell and

let's - an - by tomorrow.

HALDEMAN: Why don't we do that tonight?

PRESIDENT: I don't think you can get him that soon, can

you?

HALDEMAN: John?

PRESIDENT: It would be helpful if you could.

DEAN: I think it would be.

PRESIDENT: You need --

MARCH 21, 1973 FROM 10:12 TO 11:55 A.M. 107

DEAN: Get him to cone down this afternoon.

PRESIDENT: It would be very helpful to, to get it

going. And, uh, uh, you know, and, uh, and

then, uh - Actually, uh, I'm perfectly

willing to meet with the group, or I don't

know whether -

HALDEMAN: Do you think you want to?

PRESIDENT: Maybe have Dean report to me at the end, as

to what are, as to what conclusions, et

cetera what you want to do. I thing I

should stay away from the Mitchell side of

it at this point.

DEAN: Ih huh.

PRESIDENT: Do you agree?

DEAN: Uh huh.

PRESIDENT: and, uh -

DEAN: And I think, unless we see, you know, some

sort of a reluctant dragon there --

HALDEMAN: You might try to meet with the rest of us,

I, I'm, I'm not sure you'd want to meet with

John in a group of us. (Noise) (Pause)

Okay, let me see if I can get it done.

PRESIDENT: All right. Fine. That's it, my point is

that' uh, we can, uh, you may well come - I

think it is good (noise) frankly, to

outsider these various options. And then,

once you, once you decide on the plan - John

- and you had the right plan, let me say, I

have no doubts about the right plan before

the election. And you handled it just

right. You contained it. - Now after the

election we've got to have another plan,

because we can't have, for four years,

MARCH 21, 1973 FROM 10:12 TO 11:55 A.M. 108

PRESIDENT:

Cont: we can't have this thing - you're going to

be eaten away. We can't do it

DEAN: -Well, there's been a change-in the mood

HALDEMAN: John's point is exactly right, that the

erosion here now is going to you, and that

is the thing that we've got to turn off, at

whatever the cost and we've got to figure

out where to turn it off at the lowest cost

we can, but at whatever cost it takes.

DEAN: That's what, that's what we have to do.

PRESIDENT: Well, the erosion is inevitably going to

come here, apart from anything, you know,

people saying that, uh' well, the Watergate

isn't a major concern. It isn't. But it

would, but it will be. It's bound to be.

DEAN: We cannot let you be tarnished by that

situation.

PRESIDENT: Well, I (unintelligible) also because I

Although Ron Ziegler has to go out -They

blame the (unintelligible) on the White

House (unintelligible)

DEAN: That's right.

PRESIDENT: We don't, uh, uh, I say that the White House

can't do it. Right?

HALDEMAN: Yeah.

DEAN: Yes. sir.