Episode 201 transcript - Beyond the Colosseum - Hidden Secrets of Rome

Untold Italy Episode 201: Beyond the Colosseum -

Hidden Secrets of Rome

This is the Untold Italy Travel podcast, and you're listening to episode number 201.

Ciao a tutti and Benvenuti to Untold Italy, the travel podcast, where you go to the towns and

villages, mountains and lakes, hills and coastlines of Bella Italia. Each week your host Katy

Clarke takes you on a journey in search of magical landscapes of history, culture, wine,

gelato, and, of course, a whole lot of pasta. If you're dreaming of Italy and planning future

adventures there, you've come to the right place.

Katy

Benvenuti, Welcome everyone. How are you all doing? Today I thought we would head back to

the eternal city to discover why you’ve never really “done Rome” as many people say. Rome

is one of the world’s greatest cities thanks to being the center and beating heart of its

enormous empire that stretched over 5 million square kilometers from Hadrian’s Wall in

England to the north to the banks of the Euphrates in Syria.

Thanks to this domination, very sophisticated civilization and rich history throughout the

centuries Rome has countless treasures to explore. But unfortunately, most visitors visit just a

few of the famous ones before ticking things off their list and declaring they’ve done Rome.

Joining me today is local guide and archaeologist Margherita Capponi who has an unrelenting

passion for Rome and its many layers of history. Margherita and I were destined to meet as we

share this passion and also mutual friends but somehow it probably took a little longer than it

should. Anyway, I kept bumping into her on a recent trip to Rome and made sure she promised

to join me here on the pod.

So let’s meet Margherita and get started on this episode that is dedicated to all you history

nerds like me who are obsessed with delving deeper into the eternal city.

Katy

Benvenuta Margherita. Welcome onto the Untold Italy Podcast.

Margherita

Thank you very much. Thank you, Katy, for having me for the invitation.

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Katy

It's such a pleasure. Margherita, we kept bumping into each other in Rome earlier this year.

It's so lovely to see you and hear your voice, even if I'm now on the opposite side of the

world. We did have an instant connection over Rome's lesser-known treasures. I'm so thrilled

that you are here to share some of them with our listeners today. But before we get started,

could you let them know a little bit about yourself, what you do, and why you're so passionate

about sharing the history of Rome through its lesser-known places?

Margherita

Thank you. My name is Margherita. I am 58 years old. No, but in the reality, I am 3,000 years

old. I am in Rome from 3,000 years, and I have lived always the same place, grew up in the

same place in the city center, in nearby the Colosseum, let's say half mile from the

Colosseum. And in an area surrounded by ruins, by the antiquity. I am a very curious person,

so I grew up with ruins, but I didn't know when I was young. I was asking around, nobody knew

because of Romeans don't know Rome. Finally, I studied classics, I studied archeology, art

history, and I am still studying Rome because Rome is so big, so ancient, so spatial that they

never stop. I am crazy for Rome. I'm in love with Rome. Rome is my real love. The word Rome

in Italian is Roma, the Palindromos if you read from right to left, is Amor, that means love.

Rome is my love.

Katy

That's fantastic. You turned your love into your work. Tell everyone what you do in Rome.

Margherita

I am an archeologist. Before, for years, let's say 14 years, I spent my life in digging up.

Digging and studying. I have worked also in Southern Rome, I have worked also, so the Rome

are always in Italy, in sites that were dating back from the prehistory to the Middle Ages. I

dug up and I did only that. I was not considering tourism at all, but only because I didn't know

the business. I did that for 14 years. Then a friend of mine, we were doing a very important

excavation in the Imperial Forums. We were excavating one of the Imperial Forms called

Vespasian Forum more than 2,000 years ago. No, more than 20 years ago. We were talking to

this friend of mine, another archeologist told me, But why don't you try to be a guide? I said,

Guide? What is this guide? It's a job. You explain the city to the tourists. I took an exam that I

could take with no big problems because I studied before history, art history, archeology, and I

started to work. I realized that I really like because I am in love with Rome.

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Margherita

I want to explain Rome to, let's say, introduce Rome to the visitors. I discovered that it was a

wonderful work. Of course, archeology and excavations are my first love. But now I am a

little older, digging up is a little hard, and it's in the heat, in the cold season, so I'm now

guiding.

Katy

She is a pretty marvelous guide, I have to tell you. I think every listener knows how much I

really appreciate local guides in Italy, and Margherita is so fantastic. I can tell you that we

instantly hit it off because I so admired her passion for Roma and all its many wonders, some

of which she's going to share with us today. Because while Rome is Rome, and you all know

the big ticket items like the Colosseum and Vatican museums, let me tell you, some of its

lesser-known sites are truly awe-inspiring. Margherita, what would you like to share with us

first? Which is one of the sites that you love to visit that people might not know so much

about.

Margherita

Look, you have mentioned the Colosseum very close to the Colosseum, including in the same

ticket, so you don't have to pay an extra ticket. There is the most important place of Rome,

and in my opinion, in the world, I mean, the Hill called the Palatine Hill. That's the place

where Rome started seriously 3,000 years ago, established by a community of shepherds after

became the shepherd of the twins, Romulus and Remus, the story of the she-wolf, that is a

story. But Rome really started on the top of the Palatine Hill at the end of the Bronze Age.

Then that hill became the aristocrat's residence, then the imperial residence. So it is very

close to the Colosseum. But the people that are coming that want to see everything in one

day, they very often ignore the Palatine or they quickly walk on the top, they take some

pictures of the surroundings, and then they go on, they go away. My favorite place in Rome is

the Palatine Hill, where everything started, where you have, let's say, evidences that go back

to the pre-history, to the beginning of the history of Rome, that you see in the area and also

in the museums.

Margherita

That's a very steep hill that is very well located in the middle of Italy, in the Mediterranean

area, dominating the Tiber river. It's a beautiful place, quiet, because no big groups go there.

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You have an amazing view of Rome and you can start to have an approach with the Roman

history that is seriously 3,000 years old and that started exactly there.

Katy

Yeah, it's so amazing. There's always excavations going on continuing there, isn't there? Every

time, if you go back—and I've been fortunate enough to go back a few times—there's

something new to discover on the Palatine Hill.

Margherita

Yes, but the Italian's organization is not very well organized. They are doing new excavations,

but they don't open when they end, to the gap. You have to wait years. For example, the

excavation of a section called the Temple of Elagabalus de Vigna Barberini, the excavations

lasted 30 years and they opened the area that now is open and visible after 20 more years.

They are doing new excavations, but they are not open to the public instantly. You have to

wait a little bit.

Katy

A few decades. But I think that the very interesting thing about it is such a huge site, is it?

You can't really take it all in in one visit because you have all the remains of the temples and

also the palaces on the Palatine Hill. It is truly or inspiring. Do you have a favorite place in

the Palatine Hill that you like to go to?

Margherita

It's more than one. One is the area where the archeologists found the original huts, the post

holes of the original huts of the original shepherd, which is the southwest corner of the Hill.

Another place is a garden recreated by an archeologist called Giacomo Boni, they wanted also

to be buried there. He has recreated the Renaissance Garden. In the same place, you can see

the remnants of the prehistoric huts, Iron Age huts, and the Renaissance Garden in a few

meters of this.

Katy

That's amazing. It's a beautiful area, and not so many people see it, unfortunately.

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Margherita

Not because the people are focused on the Colosseum or a quick look to the Forum, which is

at the slopes of the Palatine, there was the entrance in the center. They mostly go there. To

go to the Palatine, you have to walk. It's up a hill, and in the summertime it's very hot, so it's

not really the tour that you have to do in the summer. You need time to do it in-depth. You

need minimum three hours. Sometimes they're opening the slopes facing the Circus Maximus.

In that case, you need probably four hours only for the Palatine.

Katy

Wow. But it's so interesting. There's so many incredible stories. I know they've just opened the

Domus Tiberiana as well.

Margherita

Yes, in fact, because the Hill became originally the aristocrat's residence and then the

Imperial residence. That has been excavated only in part, restored in part. Finally, they

opened a section which is called the Domus Tiberiana, but that probably was built, probably

by Nero and after by Hadrian. It has been reopened after more than 30 years of its

restoration. Every time you can find an open section. But sometimes (we are in Italy) you

have the new sections, but you don't have enough staff, so there is a surprise.

Katy

It's the bit that we love and the bit that drives us crazy, right?

Margherita

Yeah.

Katy

Exactly. Margherita, though, I think that one of the amazing things about the Palatine Hill is

what has actually happened on their stories, their history, the influence over the world. This

is the center of one of the greatest empires of the world has ever seen. You're treading in the

footsteps of emperors and senators and all of these things. I think it's unfortunately, like you

said, in Italy, there's not a lot of information that's provided at the site. If you go there on

your own, you're looking at a load of old rocks, aren't you?

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Margherita

Exactly. The Palatine is a place that you cannot explore on your own unless you are really

motivated or you have studied, you have prepared your visit because you see at the same

time, evidences that are dating back totally different periods. So on your own, it's really

impossible. And there are big paths you need to know the direction where to go. If you go on

your own, you absolutely enjoy the view, the sky, the atmosphere, but probably you don't

understand a lot.

Katy

Do you have a favorite moment that's happened on that site that you like to share? Is there in

history?

Margherita

Not in particular, but I like to think that from that place, the Emperors were managing the

entire world. It's impressive because the Empire that including three continents, not yet

Oceania, because probably has not been discovered yet, maybe they could arrive there. But

they managed three continents: Africa, Asia, and Europe. They were managing everything

from there. That is impressive.

Katy

It's so impressive. We think we're so clever with all our technology and everything, but if you

do a little bit of research into the Roman history, it's just incredible what they managed to

achieve without electricity or internet or anything like that.

Margherita

Exactly.

Katy

Okay. If we move on from the Palatine Hill, where's another site that you would like to

recommend to our listeners?

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Margherita

Again, a place very close to the Palatine, close to the Colosseum, that is my own area. I am

living in the slopes of the Caelian Hill, one of the seven hills, where you have two hidden

gems, two underground levels discovered probably casually by some priests that were staying

there that started to dig without any apparent reasons, and they found a subterranean world.

One is the complex of the so-called Houses of Caelian, Caelian Hill, Houses of Caelian, which

is a house that is under a Church, probably the house of two saints brothers or friends called

the John and Paul that became Christians, that being killed in their own house and buried in

their own house. The house had been covered by a Church. The house has been buried and

forgotten, rediscovered in 1800s. You walk on the street, you cannot imagine what you have

underground, and now you can visit that area under the Church of the two saints that we call

Giovanni e Paolo, John and Paul. They are not the John and Paul - the saints/the evangelists,

the Baptist, but they are two different John and Paul, two Roman saints killed by Julian the

Apostate that was a Christian, re-became a pagan, and he made a terrible persecution in

Rome in 364 AD.

Margherita

According to tradition, the two men have been killed in their house. They've been buried in

the house. Two weeks after, three more Christian friends went in the house to look for them.

They've been found by the soldiers that killed them, too. It happened in a house that after

has been totally covered by the Church. A father of the Church started to dig up in 1800, and

he found all the underneath. A Roman house that is dating in three phases: the fourth

century, the third century, and the first century, AD.

Katy

And it's very well preserved.

Margherita

Perfectly preserved because it has been buried and never explored anymore from the

antiquity, let's say, from the fifth century to the 19th century. They are called Le Case

Romane del Celio. Roman houses of the Caelian Hill.

Katy

Were they very wealthy people or were they ordinary people?

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Margherita

Probably they were wealthy because of the house, the house where they've been killed has

included a previous property that originally was split in a ground level where you had the

shops, the house of the owners of the shops and then the upper levels. All this property was

included in one property in the fourth century. Fresco - you have also interesting fresco.

These are not upper-level like the Imperial frescos that you can have in the Nero's Palace, but

they are not bad. Yes, they were wealthy, not the top of the richness, but neither is poor.

Katy

Okay. It's really interesting you get a window into Roman middle-class life then in that site. I

always wonder how the buildings that we build today, whether they're going to last 2,000

years, and I don't think they will, unfortunately. No one is going to know how we live if

humans survive another 2,000 years because there will be nothing left. Everything is so

disposable, isn't it? We just don't have the commitment to building things like they did. I don't

know. Is it in the Monti district? How would you get to this site? How will we get to see these

houses? We need to go to the Church of Giovanni e Palo, is that right?

Margherita

Yes. You can go by bus that's not far from the Colosseo subway station and you walk. It's a

hidden gem, but it's easy to be reached. You need to book the tickets in advance is better

because now the property belongs to the home office to the Ministry of Interior Affairs, but

it's managed by the Ministry of the Culture, so you need to pay a ticket. You can also buy the

ticket at the moment, but it's better to book in advance.

Katy

Everyone, Margherita has given us all the information so that we can share with you, and we'll

put that in the show notes. If you want to go and visit this site, you can. I haven't been there

myself, so I'm putting it on my list.

Margherita

Another thing is important, the church, which is on the top of the houses, is the church where

my parents married. I can tell that my story started there.

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Katy

That's so lovely.

Margherita

If they weren't married there, I could not be here probably.

Katy

Well, it's a very important site.

Margherita

Exactly. For me, for our family, yes.

Katy

Yeah, it's very personal to you. I can see that. Now, we're going to go somewhere else, maybe

a little bit further out of Rome?

Margherita

Yes, we are going to go into the countryside, the countryside just outside of Rome. Rome was

surrounded by an amazing country, beautiful, green, cool, that unfortunately has been

damaged mostly after the World War II, where we had the big immigration from Italy, from

the south, from all over. Before World War II, probably didn't count neither one million of

inhabitants. After, we had more than one million, now we are three and a half millions. The

people are living mostly in the suburbs. The beautiful country has been destroyed by the new

buildings that very often, unfortunately, in Italy, have been built without any rules.

Margherita

But there are some, let's say, some very rare oasis that have been saved. One is a vineyard

where they are producing wine that is a very special place because the property is in the

hands of the same family from more than 300 years. It's the family of a Pope, the family

Pallavicini. They have also an amazing palace in the city center of Rome, in front of the

Quirinal Palace, which is now the presidential palace. But they also own this property. There

were they had an incredible vineyard and the cellar is in the channel of an ancient aqueduct,

one of the eleven aqueducts that were bringing the water into Rome.

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Margherita

They found the channel not in use anymore and that's a channel probably the first century AD,

and they transformed it in a cellar for the wine. It's a very charming place. It's a place by... I

don't know if you know, but it's a very old building, but they didn't build the modern buildings,

but only you have the remnants of the medieval forms, this amazing channel. And in another

section of the property, they have an old building built probably in the 1500s that was a

restaurant and hotel for the travelers.

Margherita

It is along a Roman road called the Casilina that were used by the travelers to reach Naples

from Rome because the Appian Way, that was the main road in some periods was interrupted

or destroyed. They were traveling there. One of the travelers that stopped in the restaurant

is, for example, the painter Caravaggio. We know that while he was traveling to Naples, he

stopped in the old restaurant. Now the farmer is the vineyard that is producing an excellent

local wine. The wine of our countryside is not famous or doesn't have the reputation that has

the Tuscany wine, but that's very good. It's the light white Frascati, probably you know, and

they are producing also a new red light, but let's say, interesting.

Margherita

It's spatial because that land is volcanic land. This countryside is the slopes of the big

volcano. It's a very small city, it's called Volcano Lacciale, where you have also a series of

villages called Castelli Romani or The Alban Hills. It's really oasis that has not been attacked

by the buildings built without any order or any style. It's still probably like it was in 1500. It's

a place where you can go to visit, you can do wine testing, but it's not in the famous places

where all the groups go. It's very close to Rome. You can also reach by train, but it's not really

well-known. Probably, I don't know, the family says that they want to develop, but they finally

they don't do. It's a very special place and not very famous.

Katy

Wow, it sounds amazing. I think what a great recycling opportunity to use the former

aqueduct for the cellar because I'm sure it's cool and it's got the right temperature for the

wine.

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Margherita

Yes, perfect. Cool, not so humid, despite it's an old channel, but there is not water. The

temperature is always stable and it's a beautiful, incredibly beautiful place.

Katy

Amazing. Which train station do you go to to get there?

Margherita

Colonna. It's a train going from Rome to Naples, a local train.

Katy

I think we don't hear enough about some of the other wines in Italy that aren't so famous.

When it's something that's easily accessible like this and you can go on your own even just to

get there by train, that's fantastic.

Margherita

Or by bus also. There is a bus that is going almost directly there, so it's easy. Otherwise, you

rent a car if you do a tour, which is also feasable.

Katy

These little hidden gems is very overused, but this sounds like it's just one of those places

that I would really love to spend half a day visiting. Do they serve lunch there as well?

Margherita

You have to book. You have to book because the restaurant is not open anymore. But you have

to book with the group, they serve the special, local food, which is the porchetta. You know

the porchetta because you eat the porchetta, roasted small pork, salami, ham, vegetables,

and the typical pasta of Rome, and the fruits, and the local cookies, the Ciambelline - the

small donuts. So you have to go, you have to try. When you come, you let me know in advance

and we do it.

Katy

We're going to have a very busy day, Margherita.

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Margherita

Yeah, more days. You need more days to explore the hidden gems.

Katy

Oh, you do. This is what's amazing. I was telling Margherita before. I find it really funny when

people say... It does put a smile on my face when people say, "Oh, I've been to Rome before.

I've seen everything... "and it's like 'wooo'

Margherita

To tell you, Katy, I am 3,000 years old. I spent all my life, I didn't see everything. I do this job,

and also I am studying Rome all my life, all the time. I think you can never see everything in

Rome.

Katy

No. I think this is true of most cities, actually. But Rome, especially, just so many just

amazing things have happened there. I had no idea you were going to tell me about a winery,

so I'm excited about that because I love wine. Where should we go to next?

Margherita

To next, we go always in the suburbs along another road that is the ancient Appian Way and

Tuscolana Way. We go in an amazing property that was built in the middle of the second

century AD by two brothers that were probably Roman councils, incredibly wealthy, killed on

purpose by the Emperor Commodus, the terrible Emperor of the Gladiator. Do you remember

the movie? Yes. In the movie, they made him special psychopathic, but he was in a kind of

way. He has killed the two brothers to expropriate the property. The property is an amazing,

enormous villa, going from the Appian Way. It was ending along the Tuscolana Way. Now we

have only a small part that has been expropriated by the government. It is a national

monument where you have an amazing example of very, very wealthy villa.

Margherita

It's just outside of Rome, but you can go by bus. There is a bus stopping in the front and you

have the remnants probably of a small private amphitheater, private, very refined, luxurious

baths were probably, Commodus has been killed. Because in the movie Gladiator, you see that

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Commodus has been killed because in the movie Gladiator, you see that the Commodus has

been killed in the Colosseum by the gladiator, but this is not true. He has been killed in the

bath by his former mistress, called Marcia, yes, and by another killer, a former slave.

Margherita

And you have a monumental fountain and next to the... In the same property, but not really

next to the villa in a side space, you have probably the space where they were living the

slaves because in the big villas you always had a farm, familia rustica, like they say in Latin.

That is another incredible place, which is like a city because it was an enormous, aristocrat's

villa. Only a small part has been excavated. Also there they are going on with the excavation.

You have incredible reception rooms where Commodus did his special party with the couples,

the boys, girls. They mix themselves. They did like, let's say, special experience. From the

roads, they could shout, they could do whatever they wanted because people could not hear

them, I don't know, screaming, shouting. It is not famous, perfectly preserved, and it's

another place that they really suggest to visit. Called the Villa de Quintili. Quintili are the

two council brothers that have been killed by Commodus.

Katy

Did he then take over the villa himself? He killed them and then took the villa for himself. Is

that what happened?

Margherita

Yes. He said that they did something wrong, that they didn't, and he sentenced them to the

death, and he has exprobated the property.

Katy

He just wanted the property, basically.

Margherita

Exactly.

Katy

Oh, my gosh. I mean, these things are as old as these intrigues are as old as time, but they

still continue today in some parts of.

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Margherita

The world. Oh, absolutely.

Katy

Yes. I'm sure that Villa has got a lot of stories to tell. Marcia sounds like she was pretty

psychopathic herself.

Margherita

Maybe. Or maybe she was forced to be his concubine because she was a slave.

Katy

Oh, she didn't like it.

Margherita

In fact, they killed him. She contributed and killed him.

Katy

My goodness. So interesting. If you kept going along the Appian Way, you would finally get

there?

Margherita

Yes. You have two access: one from the Appian Way, another one from the new Appia. Now,

after the World War II, it has been built the Appia Nuova, the new Appia, which is going to the

highway to Naples. You have also an access from the Appia Nuova. You have two access. But

the property continued after the Appia Nuova till the ancient Tuscolana. So it was in between

two big ancient Roman roots. But now big part is covered by the modern suburbian districts.

Katy

Yeah. I think it's hard to really get your head around the scale of some of these places. That's,

to me, really incredible because sometimes you think it's going to be small, but these places

are huge.

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Margherita

No, are huge because also… I think that there was a way they knew the importance of the

propaganda and they knew that they had to show that they had big properties or big houses

to show how they were important.

Katy

Is there another spot in that area that you wanted to share as well, if you're going out that

way?

Margherita

Yes, there is an entire city. I spoke about sites that are east of Rome. This is west of Rome.

This is the city of Ostia, ancient Ostia. Ostia is the first colony established by Rome. It used to

be at the mouth of the Tiber. Now the coastal line moved away, so it's not anymore neither on

the Tiber because the Tiber changed bed, moved up to the north in 1557 because of a flood

that fell - flood, but the city is there.

Margherita

About Ostia, I can tell that everybody, all the visitors want to go to Pompeii, which is famous,

which is of course, very interesting. But Ostia is a few kilometers from Rome, 22. You go to

Ostia with a very nice train. It is not nice for the people that every day have to take it, but

it's nice for tourists. You can go by train with a very reasonable ticket, few coins, and and

then you have at your disposal, a very well-preserved and interesting ancient city.

Margherita

Wide, beautiful, always beautiful weather because it's very few to the sea, to the coastal life,

so it's never cold. Sometimes it's raining, but it's never cold. You can go all over the year. It's

very interesting because you have a lot of public building and private building. You have

examples of houses, boards, let's say, condominiums. We have villas. You have shops. You have

different types of banks. Ostia was a cosmopolitan city because there were travelers,

merchants, sailors. You find temples of all religions, a synagogue, one of the older synagogues

of the Western Europe, probably the oldest. You have the old the Pagan temples, you have

and churches, so you can understand how the people were living all together in peace,

speaking in different languages, having different customs.

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Katy

It was built around the same time as Pompeii, too, wasn't it?

Margherita

In the beginning, yes, because they've been established probably both in the sixth century.

But Pompeii has been suddenly destroyed by the eruption in 79 AD, and it stopped like this.

Ostia continued to live. You see also the phases of the late Empire, early Middle Ages, Middle

Ages, then it has been destroyed by earthquake and buried by the earth, but it has been

rediscovered and re-excavated. If you want, it's more interesting than Pompeii because it

continued to live after the 70's one. Pompeii has been definitely destroyed and buried and

forgotten until 1700, when it has been rediscovered.

Katy

Yeah. I actually went there with Margherita and it was such an incredible sight. There was no

one there and it was really easy to get to. It's not difficult to get there from Rome. It's a

beautiful spot. You do have the... They're not the traditional pine trees. Well, they weren't

the original trees that were there. I remember you telling me. What is the name of those pine

trees?

Margherita

They are called umbrella pines or Mediterranean pines.

Katy

They were planted by orders by Mussolini?

Margherita

By Mussolini, by the diggers, yes. After the diggings commissioned by Mussolini between

1938/42.

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Katy

I know they're causing a bit of a problem because of the roots and things like that, but it does

look nice. But you do have some really lovely sights to see there. I think one of the favorite

one that I shared with my children was the toilet, the bathroom.

Margherita

The latrines, where they used to go all together making new friends. They were everywhere

in the Roman cities, but then they are very well preserved.

Katy

They are, aren't they? Then you can go into a shop and into a takeaway shop and you can walk

right in. That's not always possible in Pompeii, actually, especially because there's so many

people there. At Ostia, you can go and walk around. But once again, I don't recommend going

there on your own.

Margherita

No. Also, it's a big city, so you don't know the paths, you don't know the direction not to go.

It's better going with a guide, especially if you don't want to waste time. If you don't want to

spend an entire day there, maybe. But otherwise, with the guide, you can reach easily the

most important part, the most famous. Yes, Ostia is suggest to go with the guide.

Katy

Yeah, it's a really fantastic place to go. So if you're looking for an alternative to Pompeii, then

definitely go check it out.

Margherita

Although also, if you are only in Rome and in the area of Rome, you don't have to spend a day.

You spend a lot of money by train or by car. The guide in Pompeii, you come back quickly. It's

a just to go in Pompeii if you are planning a trip in Naples area and in the region of Naples, so

you can do Pompeii, Capua, Colano, and the rest. But if you stay in Rome, if you want to have

really an idea of a Roman city, it's better to go to Ostia.

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Katy

It's a nice modern place as well. There's some nice restaurants out there, so you could go

there and then after you've done your walking around, you could go to a nice restaurant and

then head back into Rome and you have a taste of the coast because it's right on the coast.

It's very beautiful. It's a really nice place. I totally recommend 100% everyone should go there

and just to just learn as well, because this is a fascinating place where all the food that came

from around the Empire into Rome and then they put it on barges down the Tiber, didn't they?

So it would get to one of my other favorite places in Rome, Testaccio, which is where it was

then put in warehouses and distributed. I mean, logistics, probably Amazon learned a lot

about logistics from the Romans. They knew what they were doing back then. It was such a

fantastic morning that we had out at Ostia.

Katy

Rome is just full of these amazing, amazing places. Even though I've been so many, many

times to Rome, there's so many more places that I want to explore. Like I said, it really just

makes me smile when people say that they've done Rome because you can't. There's things

everywhere. Really, I think people should look to their interests. If you're interested in wine,

there's a beautiful winery you can go. If you want to go for a nice long walk in the country

along the Appian Way, you can do that too, if you like walking. Then you can discover this

incredible villa, or you can go out by the sea to Ostria. It's really amazing. There's just so

many layers to uncover. Now, Margherita, if our listeners want to learn more about Rome's

hidden secrets and stay in touch with you, where can they find you online?

Margherita

We have a website with our friends and colleagues. We are a group of tour guides. We are

archeologists, art historians, architects. Our website is www.guideaurearoma.com.

Katy

We will put a link into our show notes. Everyone will have access to that. I think the real

benefit of going with an archeologist or a historian is that you're really getting the sense of

what it was like to live back 2,000, 3,000 years ago in this amazing city.

Margherita

In the website, you find around 40 itinerary suggestions. Also, if you do not want a guide,

anyway, you have some ideas of what to do.

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Katy

That's very generous of you.

Margherita

Yeah, there are archeological sites, museums, small cities around Rome. You find some ideas.

Also, if you don't want to book a guide because our goal is to introduce Rome and to make

people in love with Rome and with the surroundings as we are in Rome.

Katy

Well, you certainly helped me extend my journey for learning about Rome, and I just can't

wait to get back. Grazie mille, Margherita, I just love hearing about it in Rome, and I can't

wait to hear more from you. Thanks so much for joining us again on the Untold Italy podcast.

Margherita

Thank you very much. Thank you again for having me. It was a great pleasure, and I'm always

waiting for you. Rome is the eternal city, so I will wait for you for the eternity.

Katy

Ha ha. Thank you so much. Grazie!

Margherita

Prego.

Katy

There’s no place quite like Rome and that’s due to all the many treasures you can discover

like the ones Margherita shared with us here on the pod today. As the city gets busier, and

these days it looks like low seasons are a thing of the past, it’s really a great idea to break up

your days by adding a few of these lesser-known sites with the classics like the Colosseum and

Vatican Museums.

When I’m talking to people about Italy before their trip, most can't be convinced of this but if

I do manage to get them to add on something a little out of the ordinary, inevitably this will

be their favorite experience. I know our listeners are curious travelers who keep an open

mind. So do check out some of the lesser-known sites in Rome. I promise you won't regret it.

Untold Italy travel podcast transcript. Visit our website for show notes and all episodes

All the details and links to the places Margheria mentioned are in the show notes at

untolditaly.com/201 for episode 201. You’ll also find Margherita’s details there should you

wish to look her up.

Thanks to all our wonderful listeners for your ongoing support of Untold Italy. I hope you

enjoyed today’s show. If you did then it would be amazing if you gave us a rating or review in

your favorite podcast app. This helps bring our passion for travel in Italy to more travelers

just like you and we so appreciate it.

Next week on Untold Italy we’re headed to another special corner of central Italy.

But until then it’s “ciao for now”.

Untold Italy travel podcast transcript. Visit our website for show notes and all episodes